Karaoke Forums

We were requested to write up an article expressing the effects of piracy to our business and it will be published. We figured we would like to use other stories as examples of collateral damage that not only extends to the retailer, but also to the kj's such as yourself.

If you would like to write up something for consideration to be used in our article, we are more than happy to receive your thoughts. Please email your thoughts to us.

MADPROAUDIO ~ EX MILITARY DISABLED ~ FAMILY OWNED COMPANY

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MADPROAUDIO ~ DISABLED VETERAN ~ FAMILY OWNED COMPANY

Be sure to include the damage to singers/songwriters by corporate outfits that use creative accounting to cheat rights holders of their share of the profits.

You may even want to discuss the intrusion of East coast mobsters into the recording industry.

Google is a wonderful asset.. My computer came with Google, did yours?

Thanks. Every suggestion will help develop a larger picture.

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MADPROAUDIO ~ DISABLED VETERAN ~ FAMILY OWNED COMPANY

I think in the grand scheme of things, piracy hasn't hurt me all that much. The KJ down the road from me that's probably my biggest competition has the typical pirate collection of 312,767,434 songs in his songbook. I have about 14,000 unique selections, and update seasonally and by request.

I have a few patrons come to my show asking me "why don't you have ### songs like Scooter's karaoke," to which I give them a 2 minute education on pirated music, then simply ask them, "what song are you looking for that I don't have?"

9 times out of 10, I have every song they want. 1 time out of 10, I promise to have the song I don't have by the next week, and always follow through on my promise (though the singers typically then sing it once and never again). 10 times out of 10, anyone reasonable understands by the time I'm done with my speech that the guy down the street sucks, and I've certainly stolen more of his patrons than he has mine.

I stand on the merits of my personality, fairness of the rotation, quality equipment, and technical expertise. Pirates typically take as many shortcuts in these areas as they did in obtaining music, so they aren't particularly competition for me. I've been at the same venue for 8.5 years and made about $160,000.00 doing karaoke as a part time job 12 hours a week. What do I really have to complain about?

If I were being honest (and if about 90+% of all GOOD KJs on this board in good venues were being honest), music piracy doesn't affect me much at all. It's an easy scapegoat when things aren't going great, but I just decided to be much more concerned with the all-around quality of my show, and good things have come as a result.

Overall, I'm much more concerned with the daily mood of my bar owner!

In closing the biggest effect piracy has had on me personally, is when I do get out of karaoke, the 1200+ discs I have that cost me somewhere in the neighborhood of $12,000+ to obtain are going to be wort just about nothing. The going rate on eBay for such a collection seems to be about $800-900. 10 years ago, it would have been more like $6000-7000.

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C Mc
KJ, FL

But if the pirate down the street went out of business you could pick up their show(s) & add to that $160k - So if you worked an additional 12 hours a week bringing it to 24, then you would make $320k.

But first, you're assuming that the pirate down the street is making $160k. Second, you're assuming that if he went down of business, all his customers will go to Topher's place. It's kinda the same assumption that all anti-piracy lobbies and organisations have been made since I can remember, and that's simply not true. If I d/l a song I'm not stealing $2 in the assumption that, if I can't download it, I would buy it. You don't know that, maybe I would, maybe I wouldn't.

Now this is real damage:

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http://youtube.com/tricky2k

We are still here and watching the thread to see what people think. There will be a clear difference between how piracy effects people personally and how it just simply effects.
Hence the reason why someone could tell you that it really has not effected them. It does not make their comment wrong.

The guy that says it really does not effect him. He is correct and lucky in one aspect, yet the laws of nature in accomplishments based upon afforded opportunities clearly tell you that it cannot be factually correct in the end.

Example; There is a seller on ebay that sells a karaoke computer system for just under $2,500.00 and although he does not advertise what music you get, this guy clearly offers 60,000 plus karaoke songs loaded on the laptop and when you factor in the music he is giving, there is no way to compete with this guy. Granted, many more customers trust dealing with us over this guy that sells out of his house. The fact that this guy even has 1 or 2 feedbacks a month is enough to see an effect. It is just how one personally measures that effect.

We also can agree to the flip side regarding someone saying they have not been effected. With the level of service provided, personality, etc. and the fact that you have a healthy library to begin with, you could easily feel as if your business is not effected because you feel happy with what you have now. Yet please make no mistake about it. If every pirated system fell off the face of the earth today, if every unscrupulous seller was banned from selling. EVERY last one of us would notice an improvement no matter how small.

MADPROAUDIO ~ EX MILITARY DISABLED ~ FAMILY OWNED COMPANY

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MADPROAUDIO ~ DISABLED VETERAN ~ FAMILY OWNED COMPANY

at least for me, Second City sounds like my experience.
pirates arent really making a difference by their piracy in the market, it is the good or bad show they provide that makes the difference, or the quality of the venue. a great host with a legal or pirate library ends up with a full bar even if it is a lower quality venue. on the other hand a great venue with a horrible host, legal or pirate, will not be successful. if they are a poor host, they arent hurting me, they are helping me by keeping the "i have to sing every other song, only play from my disc, i need lots of echo" water drinking PITA divas out of my shows. not to be confused with the great singers, who generally do not act that way.
the only effect i have personally seen on the host end has been backlash from the venues against those involved in the piracy fight.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Piracy has effected my business in the following ways.

1. Pay has been driven down. Pirates with very little investment can afford to charge much less to provide karaoke entertainment.

2. Over-saturation. Many places are offering karaoke that 10 years ago would have never done so (Beer only bars, venues with less than 30 seats ect) this dilutes the paying crowd that would have gone to a suitable venue.

3. Crap-i-oke. Pirates that enter the business and have no idea of how to run a show, poor equipment, inability to adjust settings (some do not even know how/can't adjust key), Poor hosting skills (unfair rotation, hosts getting drunk, using show as a dating game) give the entire business a black eye.

Our business was almost bankrupted by the huge flood of piracy in our area. We went from a high of 5 hosts down to a low of 2, went from a high of 16 shows per week down to a low of 3 shows per week, pay went from a high of 300 per show (averaged) down to a low of 125 a show (averaged). Only our reputation kept us from being a statistic. Most longtime hosts in this area were unable to continue and left the industry.

Things are slowly improving within the last year as the KJ's and venues are seeing that running a honest show is the least costly method. Pay is increasing, show numbers are rising, and we have even been able to hire a 3rd KJ for weekend shows.

Points well put and taken Paradigm. Yet you are from Arizona and I am willing to bet based upon the information we know, there are plenty of pirates that roam the seas over there. So we accept and agree with your point of view. Yet wish to make sure people know that no matter a persons personal acceptance of the market, how they see the effect on them personally. It is literally 100% factual that if we rounded up every last pirate that surrounded you, any legit kj would see the clear roads to secure more business.

There was a seller on ebay that bragged about having tons of karaoke and dj music with their system. Mind you, our business was far more established/legit than the guy selling out of his house (Nothing personal toward someone making living from their house).
Once eBay put more pressure on some sellers that were peddling tens of thousands of unauthorized songs on drives to the consumer. Even though we are technically considered a successful business. Because of our acute awareness and sensitivity to the subject/market/etc. We could clearly see a slight difference in how some customers would approach us. Customers that we may have never even had the chance to talk to let alone sell to due to the others online cheating the system and harming our livelihood.

We literally put our hearts and souls into everything we do. Even to the point where if a customer here locally ran into a problem with a gig and knew they would be fired that night if they did not fix the problem can drive to my house at 2 in the morning and ask me to go open the office so they could grab some equipment to save the night. That's how much heart we put into what we do. So under normal circumstances, we really would not have much competition based upon that. Yet if we cannot rip down the barriers that block the windows for people to even get a chance to see us to begin with, then we have lost much business in the process no matter how successful we are.

Put two people in a room with the same tools, the same rules and let them fairly compete for ones business, big difference. Put us in a room with 10 others that are magicians and magically produce untold numbers of songs for free, you lose many potential consumers that were drawn to the flashy things that obstructed the view of us. Of course our situation is different from kj's as you do have a stronger ability to sway your clients with superior service as they do factor in service far more than consumers factor in for us.

MADPROAUDIO ~ EX MILITARY DISABLED ~ FAMILY OWNED COMPANY

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MADPROAUDIO ~ DISABLED VETERAN ~ FAMILY OWNED COMPANY

Now, all this may be true for you in your part of Florida, but everything you've stated does not apply to the pirates in my area of NY.

1. You mention pay being driven down. This happened in NY, but not because of piracy. This happened in the late 90's/early 00's when too many of us Karaoke Regulars decided that we liked singing so much, we should start our own show/s. Many of us Singers already had started collecting our own libraries, and it was a simple matter to expand upon that and get some equipment to run a show with. Yes... many Singers went into this for the wrong reason/s, and some of us did it for the right reason/s. Regardless of the reasons, here we are.

What you see as the Pirates dragging the prices down, I see as all these wannabe KJs who brought the prices down. They came into this because it was a hobby (they liked going out to sing), and they had no following (when they decided to become a KJ). They dragged the prices down from over $300 a show to $200 (and even less). These were NOT pirates. They were just under-cutters (and in some cases, low-life-scum under-cutters). Once the prices were dragged down, they remained down. The pirates (at least in my part of NY) had nothing to do with that. They just sold their services at the same prices that the legit/non-pirate KJ got.

2. You mention over-saturation. This goes hand-in-hand with reason # 1. Too many of us Karaoke Singers became wannabe KJs. They did not have pirated libraries. Some became good/great KJs, and others just plain sucked. Regardless of whether they were good or not, there were just more of us out there. Add on to that the fact that we all traveled within the same social circles, and you now have each of us competing against each other to get our friends to come to our show/s. The more there were of us trying to find a Venue to hire us, the more we started to low-ball each other in price. Again, this still had NOTHING to do with Piracy.

3. You mention Crap-i-oke. Well, again, in my area, Piracy was not the cause or reason for it. See item #1 and 2. There were many Singers who decided to toss their hat in the ring, and knew nothing about how to run a good show. They just ran it the way they felt like, and didn't care as long as they got paid for it. These wannabe KJs didn't know how to run their own equipment, a rotation, or anything else. All they cared about was either getting free drinks and/or food, and/or getting to sing as much as they could. This affected the Karaoke market in my area.

Of course there are other things that affected it, and I won't deny that Piracy had/s a play in all of this, I'm just saying that all of the reasons you stated seem to apply to you in your area, and do not apply to me in my area.What many people are attributing towards Piracy isn't necessarily the obvious case.

i can just say ditto to Cueball.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Cueball, There is a big difference between the impact of of "Newbies" and "pirates". "Newbies" are an essential part of the industry, "pirates" are the scourge. Before the first illegal HD hit our area (around 2006) we had 1 new host starting in the industry every 4-6 months. By 2007 there was 3-4 every month due to the greatly decreased cost involved.

We have always helped "Newbies" that wished to get into the industry with training, assistance in designing systems, recommendations on purchasing music and marketing. In effect creating our own competition.

The pirates were another story. When they could "become" a KJ for under a thousand dollars by buying some old band equipment and a illegal drive Crap-i-oke and undercutting went viral. If not for the name we had built for over 15 years we would have been forced to fold like 90% of the longtime local host.

Things are improving here in this area as KJ's and venues have come to realize that it is more costly to continue running those illegal drives. Those that have decided to stay in the industry have increased their investment greatly. They are spending money on not only legal music but on better equipment. They are paying attention to HOW to run a good show. As far as I know there are no "beer and tip" shows left in the area and the low end cost for shows is back up above $100

"Newbies" we will always welcome as they are the future of this business. We have even assisted 3 of our "hired KJ's" in starting businesses of their own. We have loaned equipment to "Newbies" (when they needed to repair/replace), We have done trouble shooting when needed to track down problems in their systems, showed them how to do bookkeeping and how to market themselves.

The "pirates" however, show a general lack of character and sense of entitlement that we find to be injurious to the karaoke industry and life in general. We do not like thieves.

As with anything in this country there can be regional differences so your experience may vary.

I noticed a significant drop during the heart of the recession and it had zero to do with pirates. People that used to come out two and three times a week started only coming out once every two weeks or so. Our city also put a smoking ban in place that applied to bars and that hurt quite a bit as well. It hurt in two ways, as people didn't want to drink because they then wanted to smoke more, and the bar put in a smoking patio where people started hanging out there instead of at the tables. The shows just lost it's party edge we enjoyed for several years. Many placed stopped doing karaoke all together or looked for cheeper ways. The money just wasn't there to support the $250 weekend nights. We had to drop the price to $150 for the bar's sake. People did come in and offer to do shows for less but the owner didn't act on it.

So is it possible that some of these factors also have been in play in other areas but we aren't factoring them in? Maybe places HAD to look for less expensive ways to get the job done...

Mr Boo,
The smoking ban here happened before the huge influx of piracy and we had already recovered from that hit by promoting smoking and non smoking venues.

Yes the recession did cause our singers to visit only about 1/2 as much as they did prior but again this could have been mitigated without the damage done by piracy. Our longtime venues were very loyal to us. We have 1 show that has been running 2 nights a week for over 13 years and another just a tad over 8 years.

Most Venue owners in this area were trained by the pirates that they should not have to pay more than $75 per show and were used to churning KJ's looking for something other than crap-i-oke. Just the increase back too $100 (low end KJ minimum)per show took a very long time and was a hard uphill climb.

Also the cycle of karaoke popularity is something to be considered when trying to consider the reason behind a business drop. When you know your area and have been in business for 20 years with karaoke as your only income seeing the patterns and causality becomes much easier.

Smoking bans are just an excuse bars that were destined to fail did. We have one of the toughest smoking bans in the nation and a handful of clubs shut down in this area. Sure business slowed down for the first year, but bounced back up to pre-smoke days.
On the flipside, our club is tribal - smoking is still allowed, so using the smoking ban premise, you'd think we'd be slammed nightly with all those looking for a place to smoke, just the opposite, we lost some of really good singers due to them NOT wanting to be in a smokey place, and newbies that come in and don't know complain about the smoke.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Our smoking ban was soon followed by the recession. It wasn't just bars. I have a lot of friends in the restaurant industry and they got hit hard as well. Going out was just one of the first things people cut back on. We were starting to get things back before the ax fell but it wasn't close to being the same as it used to be.

Pirate does not always equal bad host - there are some very good karaoke hosts who either chose not to pay for their music because nobody was policing it, or because they took the approach "everybody else is doing it, I might as well do it too" Some guys I know of fall into the later niche, but are now paying for their content and have very successful shows.

Although my company doesn't do any public shows now, I cannot count the times I've had venue owners state that they don't want karaoke because either the staff hates it or they feel it brings in the wrong crowd to their place. Don't rule out how much the economy has affected the business as well. Without disposable income, folks stay at home. We've had to decrease the rate at several of our trivia shows because the numbers just don't work out. Same with karaoke.

And it's recursive, too. In the town I live in (versus the towns I travel to for karaoke), there's been a steep decline, where rotations have dropped from twenty-plus singers to rotations of five to ten. And that makes the entire process itself seem less fun and exciting, because without the crowd, the energy of the room starts falling.

I've probably skipped more karaoke nights over the last few months because of that more than anything else.

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Co-host of The Greatest Song Ever Sung (Poorly), a karaoke-themed podcast

Another thing that may be related to this - American Idol has seen their numbers drop dramatically, I think they fueled karaoke growth for a while as well. Also, imo, more shows equals more singers that may not be able to sing. A majority of bad singers night after night can kill a show as well. Sometimes no amount of eq can make somebody sound good.