Karaoke Forums

Paradigm Karaoke I would have to partially agree with your statement, I also doubt there is a venue in Safe Harbor that did not have a Certified Host tell them about the program, why would anyone sing up for a program they knew nothing about ? Athena did educate a whole lot of venues in our 4 county area there was no pushing them to sign up involved.

It might surprise you how well the local 1-1 KJ's network together and let each other know what venues are aware of and value KJ's that protect them (disc based/certified/non SC/CB/Stellar users included).

I have no idea how many of the venues presented with the program locally signed up, we provide every venue with our Safe Harbor certification number(and our 6 other certifications and/or Letters from manus). If they contact the companies or just keep them on file it is all the same to us.

We like gingers too

EIGHT certified karaoke hosts per state should be plenty.

Funny how 5 of those 9 in Florida are in a 3 county zone. When you add 6 OM disc based hosts and 4 who do not use SC/CB/Stellar and a number hosts who "resolved prior legal issues" We have a pretty good number of compliant hosts to handle these 3 counties.

FL Bonita Springs Spotlight Entertainment
FL Bradenton Terry-Oke - Mowrey Entertainment Inc.
*FL Clearwater Ann's Nite Out
*FL Hudson Old School Karaoke
FL Naples Happy Time Entertainment
*FL Tarpon Springs Sonic Harmony Entertainment
FL Palm Beach Karaoke With Alex, Inc.
*FL PASCO/Pinellas Certified Karaoke
*FL Spring Hill Santa Fe Entertainment Inc.

why would you associate with these "pirates"?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Not strange at all- those counties are YOUR work area and where you espouse the SC party, aren't they?? Nothing like intimidation to cull the competition.

Compliant to SC's will is not the same as being "certified" ( something the state of Florida doesn't recognize, I notice)per their site.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

If I walked into a karaoke bar that used ZERO SC/CB/Stellar content I would absolutely believe they were trying to avoid being in the crosshairs of a lawsuit. Whether I believed they have pirated the content they actually use or not would depend on what they actually have. But it isn't a big leap to think that someone that runs a professional karaoke show that also skips out on using the 3 most widely known and distributed brands is very likely not on the up and up.

-Chris

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-Chris

OR Chris, it could be like HERE. A few kjs here and bar owners get wind of ANY potential problems with karaoke lawsuits and they either pull the plug on karaoke, or keep their jobs and use ONLY dk, pioneer, zoom, mm, sbi, sunfly, etc...

It certainly DOESN'T mean they're pirates or are suspect. They just don't want any problems.

That's okay though. The Better singers come to my shows and get better versions overall.

It is a matter of simple economics. In order for karaoke to thrive in a market you must have a viable number of hosts. If a KJ wishes to not use those brands they are not using stolen tracks and therefore the playing field is level. I personally do not have a problem with hosts that pull the brands it just means I gain more singers at my shows. If the venues feel comfortable using hosts that choose to boycott certain brands why should I have a problem with that?

" Nothing like intimidation to cull the competition."

JoeC,

You may call it anything you like. The facts prove that using karaoke tracks that you do not own is illegal.

It is simply the same method we used when drug dealers tried to invade our neighborhood. The law abiding neighbors rallied together and did everything that was legal to push them out, even photographing the drug deals and turning pics over to the cops, calling them out, making calls to the police, setting up a citizens watch and having a with the local sheriff assigned to our neighborhood. It took some time and there were some hairy moments but our neighborhood is now safe for all of us again.

"Certified" is not a state licensing issue and it was never intended to be ,nor was it ever advertised as such.

as long as they are stealing from someone other than SC it is ok in your eyes?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

I think you meant to say... as long as they are stealing from someone other than SC, CB, and Stellar it is ok in your eyes?

I guess Athena and her Husband must be thinking that if a KJ chooses not to use those 3 brands (which happen to be of top quality, and seem to be a major player in most libraries), the rest of that KJ's library is more than likely legit. After all, Athena's husband just said that as long as they're not using those tracks (SC, CB, and Stellar), then the rest of the tracks aren't stolen... at least, that's how I just read that (and Athena's Husband is posting on her behalf, so what one says, the other must agree with).

My only question is cue, who besides SC is actively using the legal process to protect their brand? Even if a host were using stellar, they have no legal process setup by the company to deal with the situation. Who would anyone submit a complaint to, if the person wanted to? PR is supposed to be protecting the CB label, it really hasn't been active in doing so. No new suits filed by them, they are just basically continuing suits brought by CB before it's collapse. The PR problem is more complicated than SC since CB allowed CAVS to make SCDG's of their product, and downloads are available, it will be a harder task in my opinion to follow SC's example. Also they don't want to step on too many toes, since they have put their eggs in the cloud basket, and don't want to stir up negative feelings about the company. They want to focus on selling their product, minus the legal cost. Only SC is currently carrying the ball as far as the legal approach, and this is only a token situation concentrated in a few markets, such as parts of Florida, Ohio, Oregon etc.etc. etc. Nothing nation wide or comprehensive, since they don't have the resources to do so. Have a blessed day.

Well, I'm pretty sure the KJs in your area didn't "rally together", nor do I think the venues did. I'm also fairly certain that when venues feel intimidated enough to either pull the karoke plug or not start it at all- as you have described in your area, that it is a negative for the karaoke industry there in general.

Also, as you have mis-stated piracy descriptions several times here, there is no comparison to drug dealers.

This is not about piracy, and never has been. It is about business owners who refuse to sign a rediculously written audit agreement for a dinky little company, or about those who are SC CUSTOMERS like Taka-O who do not wish to comply to the same company's whims, or simply about a weak KJ passing on names to SC in hopes of diminishing their competition.


How many of SC suits in total have proven PIRACY (track theft) by the KJ named?

Of that miniscule number ( 3? 5? none?) how many were eventually prosecuted for the crime of THEFT?

You and Athena have always interchanged the term "Pirate" for a media shifter who doesn't bend to SC's wishes, and "Legal" for compliant to the same. They are NOT interchangeable, and the fact that you do so would and does mean that you pass on information to venues that is misleading and erroneous.

You ARE part of the problem.

The sad part is that I actually know that you are both nice people who have been misled yourselves. Timing is everything.

The problem is that I am reasonably certain (and hope I am wrong for your sake), though you may have gotten a short term gain in business in your area, that these actions will eventually hurt your business in the future due to your association with a name that has become unmentionable in regard to business in my area, and may well do the same in yours, if it hasn't started already.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

you are so very wrong JoeC. We have become the change that needs to be, As far as the other brands, many have been abandoned, and some were never licensed from the beginning and Some just don"t give a damn so why should we ???

Maybe a sleeping dog will awaken and stir things up until then we accept non SC/CB/STELLAR KJs.

And Yes KJ"s did band together (that was act 1) venues have started banding together, since a few found they did have to PAY BIG. (act 2 )
That group is a more clickish group with sub sets some feel more comfortably using OM Disc hosts....others go with only certified hosts and others say no SC/CB/STELLAR played...and the final subset just drops karaoke or moves to a jukebox system

our system is working just fine.....We are working the soultion

Like I said previously, I understand that you have protected your territory for the short term. However, as Knowledge of SC's actions, court results, and other information spreads, so do the areas of non-welcome SC useage- and have. I was one of the first to mention this problem, but Mr. Boo, JohnnyReynolds, and Paradigm among others- all in different parts of the country- have mentioned it as well.

I know that there is some mention of it on the northeast coast of your own state as well, through vacationing singer feedback.

Oh yes- just to stay on the thread track: Where are those alleged Safe Harbor venues again?......

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

"Working the solution", what solution? Oh yes the one size fits all SC, from the top down solution. It is not an industry solution, it is not a national solution, it is not a comprehensive solution. It is a one manu only solution to the problem of piracy which only a handful of certified hosts have identified with. This solution falls apart when the host or venue decides not to carry the SC product. As far as CB and Stellar are concerned I have seen nor heard of any actions being brought by these manus. Even in the case of SC personally I know of only one local host even approached by Kurt's company. I guess it will work in an area if enough certified hosts turn in the competition, at what cost as Joe has mentioned. What happens if SC does collapse like CB where does that leave all it's certified host supporters? Seems that will be the time the venues and fellow hosts might be thinking of a little pay back time. Hopefully supporting and working the solution won't end up costing you dearly. Have a certified day.

On my driving trip to California from Florida last June, I stopped at a few karaoke gigs along the way. I did't plan anything so I didn't look up any member from the forum. That in itself proved interesting! Of the places that I stopped (all were west of Nebraska) most of the hosts (3 out of 4) did not know of any lawsuits. None of them knew of KaraokeScene. A guy in Sacramento knew of the lawsuits, but couldn't have cared less. He told me that every KJ in northern Cali is illegal, and will have have every song you want to sing.

I guess that is one way to level the playing field.....everyone has everything! It is beginning to look like amnesty, in exchange for a annual licensing fee, would net more dollars for the karaoke mfgs.

That is exactly what I said about 2 years ago when I first started participating on these forums. That a simple license to allow the shifting of material to the PC minus the audit would net more money for the manus than the haphazard legal process. I was denounced by other hosts as a pirate supporter, or secretly a pirate myself. It was not a practical or workable solution to the problem. It still looks like the go to move to me. Funny how we seem to see the industry in a similar light Mr.marog. Have a blessed day.

A total of four defendants have gone to trial. Three of them were found to have committed acts of piracy.

Virtually all defendants who have committed piracy either default (thereby admitting that they committed piracy) or settle with us. There are several good reasons for that:

(1) Slep-Tone offers the opportunity to demonstrate 1:1 correspondence, and defendants who have it find that to be the best path to take.

(2) For a defendant who does not have 1:1 correspondence, there really isn't an effective defense to the claims.

(3) When you don't have a lot invested in your equipment and you are living on the margins anyway, defaulting might be your best option.



Although it might be convenient to talk of this activity in terms of "theft," it does not actually meet the definition of "theft" (usually, the technical term is "larceny") as a criminal activity under the laws of most states (including all that I am aware of). Larceny requires not only that the person take the property without permission but also that the lawful owner be deprived of possession. Because of the latter point, it's not larceny because the lawful owner isn't deprived of possession.

It could be criminal copyright or trademark infringement, but that would require the attention of authorities who are busy dealing with more serious crimes. For small offenses, civil handling is usually sufficient.



We take the position that media-shifting without permission, coupled with commercial use of the media-shifted copies, is a wrongful act--a civil offense. I have previously cited the authorities for that position.

You have yet to cite any controlling or persuasive legal authority for your position that media-shifting and commercial use is fully legal.

Because any act is an illegal act if it contravenes a trademark owner's statutory rights and does not fall under an applicable defense, and because the trademark owner can permit, or not, his rights to be contravened, the terms "compliant" and "legal" are functionally synonymous.



I am fairly certain that you are either overstating the degree to which the SC name has become unmentionable in your area or overstating the significance of your limited corner of town. Even so, and I will emphasize this for as long as it has to be: If the choices are "pirate the product," "don't follow the rules," or "don't use the product at all," we would gladly choose option 3. If you think ANYONE is hurting SC by boycotting the product, you're delusional. That includes a certain fellow who can't seem to keep himself from getting banned from this site, who prominently displays anti-SC signs at his shows. They make him look petty. But really, the joke's on him. If he did have enough SC discs to run his seven rigs, then SC already has his money and he's only hurting himself. If he didn't have enough SC discs to run his seven rigs, then he's only doing what we want (if you can't do it legally, please just don't use the product).

SC will gladly do business with the people who are ready to use the product legally. Even if that's only 10% of the market, we're ahead of the game.

One more thing: We're proud to be associated with people of integrity like Frank and Athena. They've done a lot for our project by encouraging others to do as they do. I wish everybody in the industry was as conscientious as they are.

As far as Frank and Athena, both are great people, and you SHOULD be proud of any association. However, I believe that advantage was taken of them due to timing, and they- especially Athena- have been manipulated. Just my opinion.

You have stated that out of over 400 suits, only 4 have gone to trial. You then CLAIM that 3 have been proven pirates. While I have seen NO evidence to back up your claim, I will suspend belief for a moment and pretend this is the case. Your are saying that only THREE- of ALL your litigants have been proven pirates ( again, I can't even find evidence of THAT, but OK). That would be- what?- .075% or less of all litigants? Wow, really sticking it to PIRATES, huh?
I'm thinking that your CUSTOMERS are taking the bigger hit.

Your claims that those who settle are mostly pirates is nothing but air- a perfect example being Taka-O. They settled pretty much to shut SC up- but SC got "the stupid", and it cost them somewhere around $18,500.oo because they could prove absolutely no wrongdoing. So much for your THEORY regarding those who settle.

Another example of a ...um...refuse pile... from your post:

Virtually all defendants who have commited piracy either default (thereby admitting that they commited piracy) or settle with us.

1) YOU state that they have commited piracy, but have never proven it- therefore it is only your opinion. No piracy proven with FACTS.

2) If a default in your favor proves piracy in your opinion, then I guess that all the defaults against you prove a complete lack of investigation on SC's part, and they sued when they shouldn't have- right?? It's either all or nothing- you can't have it both ways.


As far as me overstating the my case in regard to SC's label here, keep in mind that Paradigm, JohnnyReynolds, and Mr. Boo, among others- all from different parts of the country- have mentioned the same thing. SC has defecated on their own label.

However, I don't believe they care- and why should they? They haven't been a player in the karaoke production business since 2007 (despite a tiny single disc run in 2009). Six years. Will they produce NEW music in the future? Possible, but not enough to matter.

They are no longer important to the karaoke industry, but have converted to a parasitic company, their business plan being the majority of income through intimidation / litigation. I see this as being completely worthless to the consumer at large- hence, parasitic- sucking the lifeblood from the industry that I love.

BTW- I have been hearing for YEARS that "all the other mfrs." would be jumping on the SC bandwagon- but they haven't. Even Piracy Recovery- a company specifically created to do what SC is doing- has remained quiet. I wonder why? I don't know about PR- maybe they figured out that it just isn't worth it- but in regard to the rest of the mfrs. I would venture to guess that they would rather keep their current and continuing customer base, as opposed to SC, to whom it just doesn't matter.

Again, back to the thread topic. If "Safe Harbor" is anything but another SC phantom like the KIAA, there is no reason not to list the venues. If there are ANY registered, they would have done so for business purposes, right? What's the secret? I'm truly starting to believe that this is nothing more than another SC boogyman....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."