Karaoke Forums

1&2 ) There has been no evidence regarding a reduction of PIRACY (music thieves), and there has been no evidence OF piracy, only of KJ unwilling to bend to SC's wishes- not the same as being a PIRATE- whether you call them by that name or not.

3) I emboldened the " our area". if one runs a scare campaign properly, it can certainly be helpful in diminishing the competition in one's work area.

4) So venues that at were at one time amiable to karaoke have either stopped it or are simply no longer a possible source of income for karaoke hosts. Awesome.

5) Agreed. Unfortunately, from the above, it looks like you're part of the problem. Apparently, thanks to your efforts, the availability of venues that hire karaoke hosts has diminished, people are confusing pirates (track thieves) with those who simply do not acceed to SC's wishes- in other words are misinformed (purposely to aid the SC program?)- and ( I'm guessing here) breeding an atmosphere of distrust among those who should be karaoke colleagues..

In my neck of the woods hosts are friendly competitors who network and are there to help each other out in an emergency, be it equipment, coverage, etc... I'm betting that instances of the same have dropped tremendously in your work area due to lack of trust.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Lone, I know that you have explained that you got that "400" number from Thunder on another thread and use it with irony, some might not get that. Therefore, I will clarify:

Using the SC site that Jim Harrington states is kept reasonably up to date, there are a grand total of 66 "certified" hosts in the U.S.

If one wanted to add the GEM users listed that are NOT CERTIFIED, it would still be under 150. However, since they ARE not listed as "certified", The true number remains at 66 in the entire U.S.A.

There also a scattering (under ten) of them in Canada, New Zealand, and Australia.

WORLWIDE there are less than 76.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Whatever the true number is, it is hardly enough for certified hosts to feel good about. Nor is it enough to meet the demand for hosts if magically all the venues decided to use only certified hosts. Also it is not enough of a client base to keep SC a viable manufacturer of current new product. Since they will only be selling to a select few hosts. I know their true new product will not be out until sometime in May, what about the product they were supposed to release in March? Have a blessed day Joe.

Karaoke pirates are still plentiful, they're just stealing everything but SC. They are very adaptable it seems. There are plenty of karaoke tracks available on the internet, wouldn't be difficult to have 100,000 tracks in a few days without SC and get started in the business. So Sound Choice has done nothing to combat piracy.

In my opinion, the only way you're going to educate the KJs in my neck of the woods (NYC), is if they are already operating with a legitimate set of discs (regardless of whether they are ODB or Computerized). All of the others will not care what you have to say, and some will even laugh in your face. As for the Venues, maybe 1 or 2 will listen to what you have to say, but for the most part, they will hire whoever they want without caring about the legalities of their libraries. Some of them will even look for someone other than you, because they feel you're threatening them or you're some kind of trouble-maker (because you're warning them that they might get sued if they don't hire someone like you).

When KJs were burning entire sets of libraries (CDGs) and either selling or trading them off to/with other KJs, I was still purchasing my discs through legal channels. This was sometime back around 1999 to 2002. When I spoke of how I was doing my part to keep the Karaoke Companies in business, I got a lot of, "Who cares! Everyone else is doing it." responses. Yes, there were other KJs who were like me as well... choosing to continue purchasing discs via legal means. But, as more KJs started to boast about having libraries with 4,000 songs, there were KJs out there who obtained their libraries at pennies to the dollar (illegal burns) and were boasting that they had between 10,000 to 15,000 songs. Thus, more KJs started to trade with each other or seek out these other KJs to have them burn an entire library for them as well. Of course, in the later years, KJs started coming out with computerized libraries, and you know what's developed since.

About 2 years ago, SC made a sweep through the NYC area. As far as I know, I haven't seen anything change. When I saw the listing of KJs who were named in the lawsuit by SC, I actually questioned 1 KJ about his being named. He denied any knowledge of being named. When I sent him the URL that showed the filing of that lawsuit, he still tried to deny it, saying that the guy listed in that lawsuit was not him, but someone from Wisconsin.

I still see the same KJs advertising and operating at the same Venues. Some of them I know are legit, and others I know are not. There is 1 KJ which I know of who did purchase the GEM Series, and he was listed in SC's website as such, but now his name is gone. Currently, there is only 1 KJ listed in NY as being GEM Licensed, but not Certified. He is located in Patterson (somewhere Upstate). There are 6 KJs in my neighboring State of NJ who are listed as being GEM Licensed, but not Certified. They are located in Blackwood, Bloomfield, Boonton, Carteret, and Manhawkin.

My guess is, the only way you are going to educate these llegal KJs, is when something happens, and you see the end results from that.


And what about all of the KJs here (in this Forum)? Many have stated they HAVE reported several known Pirates in their areas to SC, yet they are still operating and thriving. They have stated that their reports seem to have gone on deaf ears. And then, to add insult to injury, we see reports of SC going back to the same 3 or 4 states that they hit 3 years ago, and are now hitting them again. Where's that good line of communication you're talking about coming from? Who's got that Batphone to Commissioner Gordon?

I agree. I think there are only two ways to make headway. One, is to go after a select key few for their entire piracy catalogs with an air tight case, with tons of research and with the intent of winning a major award that becomes National attention. Of course one manu can't do this. The other is to have a 3rd party organization like a BMI to police the industry and act accordingly with Manus being a set of members just like Kjs and venues. Of course one manu can't do this.

So the only thing that one manu can do is perform a mass sweep with cut rate cases\very little return and pester a few cockroaches along with their own pets. This approach may not put a huge dent in things, but it can "recover" some proceeds that a manu owner may or may not be entitled to which may or may not support a skeleton manu owner and his primary counsel. And I have a feeling both are OK with that.

Cueball,
That is why it takes a group of KJ's willing to get in compliance and be willing to do the ground work. Yes some venues did laugh at those trying to educate them and sometimes even worse than laugh, Yes some venues tried to avoid any KJ that approached them in the beginning as well. The majority of that has stopped in our area as the lawsuits have continued and venues have been made aware that they WILL have to pay if they continue to use pirate hosts. We have not seen a venue lawsuit make it to court here yet however a number have been advised by their insurance companies and/or IP attorneys to settle.They have also found it cheaper to settle quickly much the same as the pirates hosts have. Oh and the venues that went through the process are very cautious of any brands not just SC, think about it if you owned a venue and had to pay one company would you leave yourself open to be sued by others ?

Not quite true Joe.

Athena counted the numbers list on the SC site and complied the following and asked me to post them for you.

ALL of the below are listed on the Sound Choice Certified Host page.
http://www.soundchoicestore.com/certifi ... pg-69.html

number of current Legit hosts listed on SC safe harbor
66 passed audits,
10 resolved any prior issues
211 Gem Series Owners...total of 288 that wish to be listed

that number has increased by 88 in about 6 months.

Also there as some that do not wish to be listed on the site for whatever reason. In our area we are aware of at least 3 KJ's that do not want to be listed on the site.

" Unfortunately, from the above, it looks like you're part of the problem. Apparently, thanks to your efforts, the availability of venues that hire karaoke hosts has diminished, people are confusing pirates (track thieves) with those who simply do not acceed to SC's wishes- in other words are misinformed (purposely to aid the SC program?)- and ( I'm guessing here) breeding an atmosphere of distrust among those who should be karaoke colleagues"

Again you are dead wrong Joe. The venues that no longer hire hosts are venues that were never viable venues, They started having karaoke when they were able to hire thieves for slave wages IE the 18 seat beer and wine bar one block from me. that used to host karaoke 3 nights a week and paid in free beer.

We have a good solid core group of "karaoke colleagues" in "our area" that include not only certified host but also original disc based host, those who prefer not to use SC/CB/Stellar, "reformed" track thieves who have resolve legal issues with the manus, 1-1 Newbies and Gem series owners.

Within our "core group" there is a lot of cooperation, We can and do loan equipment, cover shows for each other, pass on leads to those that may be a better fit for a venue due to pricing or crowd/location,buy sell and trade equipment and original discs and generally help each other out. We are always on the out for any "new" hosts to add to our core as well.

We ARE part of the SOLUTION.

MrBoo,

" to go after a select key few for their entire piracy catalogs with an air tight case"

Not really sure if you are aware but there have been quite a number of Hosts "permanently enjoined" from using any manufacturer's tracks digitally without written permission in our area. Only one went to trial and that host failed to appear ON the date of trial, the rest were all default judgements where hosts failed to respond to the lawsuits at all. So ONE manufacture is having success for the entire industry at least in "our area".

OK I think I have fulfilled my agreement with Athena and answered questions she would feel needed to be answered. Back to work will check back in a few days when I have time.

kjflorida, You left off a pretty important part of what I said. You think it's working for YOU where you are and that's great for you. Shutting down a few places in your area with menial punishment has not been Nationwide eye opening and that is the case for every little pocket SC\JH have done their thing. I firmly believe that SC's current tactics are not going to change the Nationwide culture of this industry in any way that would ultimately suit the mass that holds an interest because history says so. But what do I know, maybe it will..

This statement is not true.

I have amassed evidence of "actual piracy"--the possession and use of SC-branded karaoke discs by persons who do not own a corresponding disc--by operators in numerous locations. That evidence has been repeatedly presented in courts where it has been required. It is rarely required because most of the operators who are "actual pirates" are unwilling to defend their actions in court. That does not mean that the evidence does not exist.

Once again, we have a statement on your part that has been repeatedly corrected and shown to be false. That you continue to perpetuate this lie is further evidence of your malice toward SC.

Let's be honest here--I know it's hard for you to do when SC is concerned, but please try--do you really think that most of the people we sue are people who have 1:1 correspondence between their discs and their hard drives?

Do you really think that someone who has three hard drives each with 130,000 tracks has 1:1 correspondence? I'm aware of maybe 3 or 4 operators in the whole country who could maintain three systems with that many tracks.

Do you really think that someone who started his karaoke company 3 months ago and who has a hard drive with 70,000 tracks on it, including rare tracks from discs that only sold 500 copies 10 years ago, has 1:1 correspondence?

Very true MrBoo, what is happening here is not eye opening on a national level YET. However the little pockets are growing and eventually if things continue as they are those little pockets will become bigger and overlap.

pocket....singular. you are it apparently.


this is exactly what happened from the suits in AZ, it's like trying to get a job as a bartender with your wife working for the liquor board. doing things right or not, that would be hard to get a job if you told that information during the interview. found a way around it though, just removed mention of it from my advertising materials and suddenly i have more work than i can handle. with no other changes in my approach or advertising this just shows that the effect of the SC lawsuits in AZ has been negative to the hosts.
and i know i am not the only one to be experiencing this. i wish it was different, but it isn't. the fact remains, people dont care. singers couldn't care less if you are certified or not so the venues don't.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Well, that's not entirely true. Apparently in Joe C.'s area, the Venues care enough... at least to the extent that they don't want to take any chances at all that they might be sued. They don't care if you're Certified or use original discs. They don't want SC used at all... PERIOD. Thus, another bullet in your foot.

What you are talking about will take time, for some of us hosts time is running out both personally and professionally, and this experiment in the suppression of piracy will not effect me for one. With retirement coming up in a little over 2 years I wonder who will be out of business first me or SC? It really matters little to me whether they succeed or fail since I won't be hosting anymore. Have a certified day.

You're right, it will take time. So because something will take time we shouldn't pursue it? Imagine the Founding Fathers of your country saying, "Well maybe we shouldn't pursue our independence because it will take time".

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You can be strange but not a stranger

You're retiring?

There is no such thing as a "non-viable" venue that seats over 15, if handled correctly, AND who can find an inexpensive KJ. Not ALL undercutters are either pirates or even bad KJs. We have a guy here who is disc based that is retired, loves hosting, is GOOD at it, and will work for $75 ( he also won't travel out of town- a 2 mile range, so no real transportation costs).

Yes, I agree that reformed anythings can become serious zealots- mostly in defense of their own actions.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

First, I believe that at least 50% of PC hosts are probably track thieves (pirates), and maybe more.

I would also agree to your second scenario in particular. No decent business person is going to lay out the money required for 70K tracks initially if they consider how long it would take just to make that money back.

We really do not have a disagreement in regard to the absolutely overwhelming amount of piracy in this industry- and never did.

It has always been about methodology.

As for who SC sues, there is absolutely no way of knowing if any are pirates or not, because SC's suits do not target pirates, but media shifters. How many- if any- of the KJs that SC has sued been proven guilty of piracy in court? Even you don't KNOW if most of those you have sued are pirates, though you may believe they are.

Please don't re-post the same old thing about the legal limitations regarding your efforts, and there being no other way. There was, there is, and SC went for cheap and dirty rather than correct. THAT is where we disagree.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."