Karaoke Forums

Well, if your disc got lost or stolen or destroyed, then you are just plain S.O.O.L. If any of that happens, then it is up to you to find a replacement for it, and the Backup is not considered to be a replacement. Once your Original has disappeared, your Backup copy is useless. If some of these tracks no longer exist on the disc you are looking to replace, then find it on another brand or get a custom track made. That's all.

Now based on what I said before, are you telling me that there are that many KJs out there who had their entire libraries lost or stolen or destroyed (like in a flood or fire)? Really???? Or, that they just happened to lose all of their SC discs, but have everything else? I find that highy unlikely.

No matter how you coat this James it still comes out that the host must comply with your complaint and give you access to his or her business and materials. This is all based on your complaint which could be real or worthless. The real problem here is that to make this all go away the host or venue has to pay you off, or go out of business in the case of the host. These complaints are rained down in mass filings and it is questionable whether the proper investigations have even been done. Have a legal day.

So cue, timberlea I have heard of KJ's having their disc collections or parts of them stolen, they are simply to cease operations until they can replace their collections? I know that is the morale thing to do, is it practical in all cases? I can see why hosts with large sums of money tied up in their discs would want to cling to the 1:1 compliance, it retains whatever little value is left to their large investment. The discs in and of themselves with advances in technology have no value, it is the information on the discs that is valuable. Cue why should a host not have everything else but SC if they don't buy SC? If you get a custom made disc and it is copied from original labels such as SC or CB, isn't it just as illegal as something pirated? Also some songs are only available on one label or two and getting a copy can be very difficult, example "Hanging Tree" by Marty Robbins. We could spend from here to eternity trying to sort out the industry and try to figure out who is legal and who isn't, or what part of a library is kosher and what isn't. It's a huge waste of time that could be better spent on hosts and venues trying to make what they are doing work. The only current value of the discs is to prove that you are a legal operator v.s. an illegal one. Nothing is ever said about whether you are a good host or a hack. I feel that I have protected my business and the venues I work for by not using the SC product, that is my business decision. I am currently working 6 days a week, because I can focus on my business with no distractions, it works for me. Have a blessed day.

This is similar to what I addressed in my "Backup" thread a couple months back. I don't see any difference between losing a disc, and an unplayable disc. In both cases, the original information on the disc is lost.

One of my dogs chewed up a couple of discs last year year. So I deleted the tracks from my library. I believe that was the right thing to do even though some people from my backup thread seemed to be comfortable with picking up all the pieces, putting them in a baggie, and keeping the track in their library (or playing from a backup burned disc).



Should they cease operations? IMO - Yes.
Is it practical? I don't believe practicality has anything to do with it.

We are unique in that some of the tools of our trade can be digitized and backed up ad infinitum. But that should not preclude us from adhering to the same principles the rest of the physical world must adhere to.

If a plumber, carpenter, auto mechanic, has their tools stolen, they can't work until their tools are replaced. They can't conjure up a replacement hammer from thin air. Why should we be allowed to work just because we have a magic copy of something sitting on a spare hard drive?

If my house burned to the ground tomorrow, I could technically continue with my shows because the PC's with all the tracks are at the venues. Would I? Depends.

I would call Sound Choice, Digitrax, and Stellar to ask if I could have a temporary exception. If they said no, I would exclude their content and run only with those that said yes. And yes, I would also exclude all the orphans on principle. If they all said no, then I would consider whether I want to start over, or take the check from the insurance company and cut my losses.

Actually, now that I think about it, I could do 3 of the 4 nights because my Stellar CAP agreement allows for me to have ZERO discs and still operate.

Yet another option would be to tell all the singers that iCroons.com is my new songbook. If it exists there, then I have it, and just buy on the fly and start building my library based on requests. Great thing about that is I would only have songs that get requested and sung.

-Chris

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-Chris

i am kinda doing this right now. they love it.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

One of the hosts here lost everything in a bar fire. We are having a few events to raise money so he can get back to work. He will buy what he will need, including music and he will have his regulars back. A good host can overcome adversity. It won't be the same library or as large (22years in the business) but it will be a legal one.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

I didn't say that. Go back and reread my statement.



As long as you are getting them from a site that is authorized to sell those custom discs, then the answer to your question is no.


Again, if you can't replace the song in question with another original Manufacturer issued disc or a custom made disc with that song, then you are S.O.O.L. Now, if you already have a backup copy of a disc, and one of the tracks on your original is no longer playable (but the backup copy is fine), can you use the backup copy instead? I don't see why not. What Manufacturer or Enforcement Agency is really going to take the time to check a KJ's library for defective song tracks? What are they going to do?... play each and every one of your 10,000 plus song tracks to check? And, if you undergo an audit, just switch back the original for the backup.

Or, you can do what Bruce is doing... make your own custom track (graphics and all).


This is where we will just have to agree to disagree. If the disc is destroyed there's not much you can do about it. But, I feel that if the disc is still in one piece (thus making it easy to identify), and it is unplayable (maybe just 1 track can't play, but the other tracks are fine), I stand by my being able to use my backup disc in its place, and storing the original away with my backups.

Chris, technically, you are running a system using your backups. You ripped them to a hard drive, and have stored the originals away. That's not much different from me choosing to use my backup copy and store my original away (regardless of whether it's playable or not). It's very possible that some of the discs you ripped had a pin hole or two in them (which could make some track unplayable), but with all the software corrections we have, could have copied perfectly into your ripped version. Who's to say that some of those discs you have are defective, and you might not even know it (because of some auto-error correction software in your ripping process)? You could conceivably have over 100 bad discs in your library, and not even know it.

Chris, with regard to getting audited, did SC ask you to play each and every disc, including every single song track on those discs, to verify that they were all playable, or did they just ask you to show them the original physical disc? Did they examine the discs at all for any physical imperfections?

There is no technicality. I am absolutely running my shows from backups. There is no functional difference between what I am doing and someone running from burned backups.

I am actually not arguing against having a backup of a whole, complete disc that may have scratches or pin holes that prevent a track or 2 or even 3 from being played. But using a backup (be that a burn or a computerized rip) of a original disc that is completely unplayable seems to me to be a bit sketchy.

I have handful of CD's that I purchased in 1984 that still play today. A couple of them have suffered some pretty significant wear. Modern systems do have error correction that takes care of this. The same applies to CD+G's with pin-holes. Modern CD+G disc players can correct for minor errors the same way that a ripping program can.



We did not attempt to play any of the discs. But they were in effect inspected via the disc stamping process. We caught a couple of paper label fakes during that process (I posted about this along with pics a year+ ago). We did not run across any discs that looked unplayable.

I do believe that folks that have backups of original complete discs have in good faith done more than they need to do to ensure they are compliant. I am not suggesting that anyone check their entire physical disc library for unplayable tracks and remove individual tracks. But, if I have a disc that cracks in half, or as a whole becomes unusable, I will delete it from my digital library.

I have many discs that for whatever reason, during the ripping process, one or more tracks would not rip. Those tracks aren't in my library. I didn't call a buddy of mine or go on the Internet to find a rip of the offending track.

-Chris

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-Chris

Then I guess we are in agreement after all. The few backup discs that I am currently using instead of my Originals, are in that type of condition... 1 or 2 tracks that are either unplayable, or word swipes are garbled/messy (whereas the backup is perfect). One of my discs (DK 52) has a big crack forming from the center ring of the disc, and expanding outwards. Surprising, the disc still plays perfectly, but, in order to protect it from cracking completely, I now use the backup burn that I made of it. I do agree that if the original can not be played at all, then it should be replaced or sacrificed.

And as you just stated, it doesn't sound like SC was really looking for defective discs, so they weren't examining the physical discs to determine if they were fully or partially playable, or completely unplayable. They were just examining the physical discs to determine if it was an original or a counterfeit. It would have just been by happenstance if they had come across a bad disc.

Interesting.

1)"Any manufacture that is unreachable or unwilling to give permission can not be used digitally even if the KJ owns those discs."

Who is the legal agency with the authority to make that claim, and who determines A) whether permission was given from an unreachable or defunct company, and B) which unreachable or defunct company has given SC the permission to destroy their product, and how was this done?

2) "The courts are ordering all "HD's or "other digital media" to be turned over to SC within a set time period for erasure or destruction"

How many of "the courts" have done this so far, and in which cases?

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Again what seems to be the purposeful exchanging of "Legal" with " "Compliant" ( to SC's wishes). What SC wishes for is in no way connected to the definition of legal.

That being said:

1) An audit makes one compliant to SC, and has nothing to do with either being legal or legit, nor is it a requirement for same. Al it means is that if a host is compliant , SC will turn a blind eye to media shifting for which they cannot give permission in the first place.

2) Media shift and get sued? Unless SC comes up with some evidence for the suit in the first place, the audit for discover would not normally be mandated.

In other words, a suit without basis SHOULD be dismissed out of hand without an audit. This doesn't mean that friendly judges are impossible to find, but the process seems to be getting more difficult for SC.

As for media shifting, there is no definitive legislation etched in stone.

As for media shifting the SC logo as summarily attached to the track by SC, but not using it to defraud, sell another product, or devalue SC's- not much going on there either.

So what's golden in terms of legality? Only using music that you have PAID for, not stolen. SC may or may not sue you regardless of legality, but we know that already.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

If I have a receipt for it, I can prove that I paid for it- didn't steal the tracks- and THAT is the ONLY issue- not whether the physical disc can be found or not.

I buy a software item- say, Calendar Maker. I install it on my PC. In use, their logo pops up, by the way. I lose the disc. Must it now be removed from my PC?

Before you answer, let's make it a bit more relevant:

You buy a download- for which you NEVER had a disc.. You're not "1:1". can you use it? Keep in mind that only SC uses the 1:1 bit to any great length in the karaoke industry. Can you use that download, or does 1:1 ONLY have relevance to SC?

Careful now.....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Really????

And if you sell that disc to someone else (let's say on e-bay), and you still keep your original receipt for that disc (which you bought 10 years ago), does that mean you can use a backup copy that you happened to have for it, and still claim ???

Makes you wonder why people think IP is different from physical property. I wonder how many store would let you come in with a receipt and take another item because you lost (in whatever manner) the first one you bought.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Only at WalMart..

Wouldn't it simpler to just buy nothing but SC discs and just give them all your hard earned money , ( something they would love. ), or just boycott SC all together? Never been without my 1:1 disc ratio, but if I buy more I will not buy anymore SC, I don't need to. Lots of other choices out there.

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Still love to sing!

I think Cueball and Timberlea both covered it, but given that you are luddite

If you have a receipt, you can only prove someone paid for it at some point. That receipt does not prove possession or ownership. Walk around a large shopping mall. I bet within an hour you could "prove ownership with a receipt" for some sexy bras and panties from Victoria's Secret just by picking up pieces of paper in the parking lot. I have receipts for a lot of stuff I have purchased around Christmas over the years but then given the purchased items to people as gifts. *I* have the receipt, someone else has the goods....who does it belong to?

Possession and ownership are mutually exclusive.

I rent a car. It is in my possession. But I do not own it.
Most computer software is licensed and the license can be revoked at anytime but the software manufacturer. You buy a license.
You buy karaoke discs...the medium on which the content is held, but you do not own the underlying work. You are not free to use it for any purpose you wish.
I download a karaoke track from a torrent. I possess it. I don't own it.
I steal your discs from you. I possess them, I don't own them.

And here is the big one.....Someone else steals your karaoke discs from you. They sell them to me. I get a receipt. Are they mine? Are they yours? Are you allowed to use your backups while I possess the originals? Am I allowed to use backups (burns or computer based) after we discover the problem and return the discs to your possession? I still have a receipt.

Possession and ownership can be limited and restricted.

As Johnny Reverb pointed out....my avatar....I took the picture. I own and possess the picture. It is mine. But there are certain uses for which I would be restricted (probably) from pursuing - printing and selling T-shirts, using it for advertising or merchandising, and I suppose I should really give Jack Black a call and ask him if it is okay to use the pic as an avatar, but I think I am going to walk the fuzzy line with it for a little while longer.

Receipts as "proof" are conditional and only relevant to certain entities under certain conditions. The IRS may be satisfied with showing only a receipt for the purposes of claiming donations to the Goodwill and within certain limits. Claiming a beachfront property in Malibu may require you produce a little more than a sales contract (receipt) (I have the sales contract for the first house I bought 12 years ago....but it's not my house any longer).

A receipt may also satisfy an insurance company for certain types of loss. But my insurance company actually asked me to take picture of my 1972 Citroen 2cv with either my wife or I in the picture. They also wanted pictures of it inside the storage structure on my property. My home insurance provider asked for pictures of my karaoke disc library because of the high value I assigned to it in the event of a loss. I went so far as to shoot a lengthy video to cover myself.

Neither ever said to me outright "for the purposes of determining ownership or possession" but I bet those two words would come up in court if I sold my 2cv then tried to claim a loss on it and the insurance company saw fit to sue me for it.

In the case of most computer software, the "disc" is a transport mechanism. The disc by itself is nothing more that a coaster until it is placed into a computer and the data is moved from the disc to the computer, then processed. In fact, the act of "installing" software usually modifies it significantly from it's disc based form and may even ask for information for whom it is registered/licensed to. In other words, what ends up on the computer is usually significantly different from what is on the disc.

In every case of modern software that I can think of, the purchaser is a licensee of the software. You may have a receipt from Best Buy for your purchase of Diablo III, but that software does not belong to you. It belongs to Blizzard Entertainment. They can, will and do revoke licenses.

Now.....for karaoke......

I mentioned this in another thread....

A Karaoke host buys 10's of thousands of dollars of karaoke music over a 20 year history of hosting (or 2.5 years like me). They keep every single receipt. One day, someone breaks into their trailer/home/storage unit and steals all those discs. The receipts show the material was purchased and could be used to help identify the discs and possibly "prove ownership" in the event the authorities apprehended the thief and recovered the discs. But until the discs are recovered, you do not possess them and they are not under your control. I don't believe ANY karaoke company has any obligation to let you continue to run your show without having the discs in your possession, regardless of the circumstances. They may cut you some slack and work something out with you if they are nice, but I don't believe the KJ has any legal standing in being justified to continue to use the material.

Also, just because you bought, own, possess karaoke discs, doesn't mean you can do anything you want with them. You own a disc. You do not own the underlying work. If you have any doubts on this, run for public office, then use a Sound Choice (or *ANY* karaoke company for that matter) audio recording of a Don Henley song in your campaign. You will have an attorney from Don Henley's camp contacting you pretty quickly.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/ap ... politician

All of this is a rather (wow!) long-winded means of saying, receipts, ownership, possession are all conditional.

I can take a sledgehammer to my car anytime want (on my own property). I can swap the 2 cylinder for a hemi. All because the car companies don't care much what I do after I take possession of the vehicle.
I am restricted from making certain modifications to computer software (that I "bought"). Because I don't own the code/intellectual property.
I bought, "own", and possess a bunch of karaoke discs, but I can't use the music for certain purposes without permission.



So I guess this begs the question - Do you actually possess all of your original discs still? Or do you only possess a bunch of receipts?

-Chris

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-Chris

I'm still kinda hung up on the statement that if you are caught with illegal SC that you have to destroy all illegal tracks, not just SC, that you have that you don't have a disc for.

OK so what about all the illegal manufactures to begin with does that mean if I have a disc from a an illegal manufacture that I'm legal because I have the disc?

I really think that that Judge in Fla. was over reaching his authority when he gave that ruling. How does he know for a fact that any disc is have is legal or not? How can he say that you must destroy stuff you don't have a disc for when CB and others sold downloads.

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I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet

Just wanted to bump this in hopes that Harrington or someone else "in the know" would be willing to respond.

Another thought to add to this scenario, which especially applies to those on here that think an SC boycott is sufficient: If the use of other companies' goods, using the unfair competition "umbrella", can be dictated by a third party (i.e. SC) legally, then what is there to stop them from making the same claim, even in the absence of SC material?

Folks, I hope this isn't viewed as an oversimplification, but I believe its truth is evident: A given action being "right" doesn't make it legal, and, conversely, being "wrong" doesn't make it illegal. Giving opinions on a forum is one thing, but trying to blur the lines to try to make "right" legal and "wrong" illegal is not how the real world works. If I am not mistaken, civil courts cannot write laws; they can only enforce them.

Curious ... all of the music I have obtained in the last, who knows exactly how long, can be re-downloaded at anytime. All I have to do is log on to my account. Destroyed, stolen or lost, doesn't matter. It's one of the perks of being able to obtain digital files. Of course this doesn't apply to (tools, groceries, blah, blah, etc ...) but it does apply to any music obtained by download in the modern era.

Music & successful karaoke distributors have found a way to be relevant and appeal to their customers. Does it apply to all of the old disc I have collected? No, unfortunately it doesn't. That is why I have back up copies.

If a company doesn't have this easy to use method of obtaining their product in place, I don't use them.

Discuss, argue, whatever ... I'm off to enjoy my day. Hope you do : )