Karaoke Forums

This is what makes everything so confusing, a business would have to go to all of these different collection agencies working for the copyright holders or the various works used in a commercial karaoke show. They would have to pay these agencies to obtain permission to use the various materials. Talk about a Byzantine system. So forgetting the manus such as SC, if the copyright holders ever get fully into the act, it would mean the end of profession public karaoke, and we know where that would leave all of us. Have a blessed day.

While it is true Joe that the logo is completely worthless in regards to running a karaoke show, the displaying of the logo gets the legal ball rolling for SC. Maybe the fee should be for being able to display the logo period. I Wonder what that is worth the price of a yearly audit, 150.00 a year? Have a blessed day.

If the logo is so worthless, lets strip the logo off of all karaoke music, replace them all with black and white generic "Karaoke Music" labels a la the early 1980's and toss them in a bin. There are several people who claim that karaoke isn't brand dependent, so this should work just fine for them. In fact......here.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/50-thousad-of-K ... 625wt_1399

It's karaoke music. YOU should be able to make the rest happen and be successful.

I would argue that the anti-SC folks require the labels as much as anyone else does so they know what to pull from their karaoke libraries.

-Chris

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-Chris

Wow Chris.... It struck me as funny, how this seller quoted the reviews from the buyers, and 4 of the 5 buyers had the exact same thing to say...



Makes me wonder if the buyers are even real.

Anti-SC folks Chris? I don't think hosts are actually anti-SC as much as they are anti-SC's legal approach to the solving of the karaoke piracy problem. Haven't you even expressed some reservations about how they have conducted this legal solution process of their's? Does that make you anti-SC, or does it make you a thinking individual? Have a blessed day.

Really? Not seeing much of that at all from court results- may have been one or two from KJ/distributor hybrids, but I don't remember any from simple KJs.

. Now, they have been moderately successfull intimidating "settlements" from uneducated KJs, but that's not the same as winning damages.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

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So you are saying Joe that they have no legal right to try and recover lost money? [/quote]

No, I have actually NEVER said that. They have every right to try and recover losses. They just attempt to do it unethically.

That aside, the question in regard to your plan remains:

WHO gets the yearly media shifting license fee?

The karaoke producers such as SC have no legal right to grant permission to media shift the tracks, so it can't go to them- one would be paying for nothing.

That leaves the publishers/owners- who have never asked for it,probably don't need it, and don't care- at least at the moment. It may be a different story later, and then it would be worth re-visiting....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

No, I have actually NEVER said that. They have every right to try and recover losses. They just attempt to do it unethically.

That aside, the question in regard to your plan remains:

WHO gets the yearly media shifting license fee?

The karaoke producers such as SC have no legal right to grant permission to media shift the tracks, so it can't go to them- one would be paying for nothing.

That leaves the publishers/owners- who have never asked for it,probably don't need it, and don't care- at least at the moment. It may be a different story later, and then it would be worth re-visiting....[/quote]

So were back to square one, there is not effective way to solve the problem of karaoke piracy, and the current SC legal solution is the only road currently being tried. It is in itself a broken system which is having little effect on the situation, and the beat goes on. Have a blessed day Joe.

Request: Can we please address the OP topic? The current path has been and is being re-hashed ad nauseum in many other threads.

I am not sure an industry wide fee to shift is the way to go or even technically feasible. Since we are now on Page 3, I think we can all agree that "simple" doesn't factor into this at all.

If I am not mistaken, none of the manufacturers can grant "shifting" permission on behalf of the copyright holders. The Big 3 (now the Big 2) had programs that effectively looked the other way regarding what they could control providing respective conditions were met.

Before I started hosting, I was working with 3 business partners and we had some pretty grandiose plans for changing karaoke at the local level and then nationally. But it all revolved around licensing entire libraries from the karaoke manufacturers. The idea was to have legal access to everything the pirates were stealing via the Internet. I was in charge of investigating the licensing piece of this. My first three calls were to Sound Choice, Chartbuster, and Pop Hits Monthly (Stellar Records). This is when I learned more about how the karaoke licensing model actually worked and it wasn't as simple as "licensing an entire karaoke catalog". The closest any of the Big 3 had to what I was looking for was Stellar Records and their CAP agreement.

I think the Stellar approach of granting no questions asked access (well....very few anyway) to their catalog is one of the best implementations. The Stellar CAP model basically grants access to a substantial library (up to ~10 years worth) consisting of several brands that cover every genre. The karaoke music also coincides with a musical period when a great deal of singable music was coming from the music industry. A KJ could easily run a successful karaoke show with this collection of music and additional downloads or one off purchase to satisfy customer requests.

Stellar CAP - http://www.stellarrecords.com/cap_info.html
Pros: Single Fee, no audit required, access to a huge amount of music
Cons: No actual karaoke music provided to CAP licensee, only covers what they already have in their possession and is detailed in the CAP agreement. LOTS of duplication across the CAP covered tracks

Chartbuster provided something similar with their 6000+ and 12000+ drives. Even their KJMP Drive "pay as you need" model was innovative and technically granted you access to what you needed when the singer wanted it. These were not quite as comprehensive as the Stellar CAP, and in retrospect, I believe the 6000/12000 drives were a final gasping breath attempt to squeeze as much money out of their assets as they could before going belly up. But they were still very cost effective means of getting authorized access to a large portion of the CB catalog.

Chartbuster 6000/12000 - Nothing to link to any longer
Pros: Single Fee, No audit required, ~6000 or ~12000 unduplicated tracks, You own a physical representation of what you purchased (the drive)
Cons: Low quality rips (128k), not available any longer, stronger focus on country music means there is not as broad of a selection for other genres

Chartbuster KJMP Drive - Nothing to link to any longer
Pros: Low cost up front, No audit required, Pay as you go access to what a KJ needs when a singer requests it, You own a physical representation of what you purchased (the drive)
Cons: Can't buy credits any longer - what you have now is all you will ever get (rumors it could be taken over but until that happens....), Low quality rips

The Sound Choice GEM, while not nearly as large or comprehensive, delivers a much higher quality (as in 320k pre-ripped content *NOT* necessarily better renditions) end product in a format that is preferred by most of the industry. Not quite as cost effective on a cost per song basis as the Stellar CAP (which you can still get) and the CB 6000/12000 drives (which are no longer available except in aftermarket and I imagine very few were sold in the first place.) But it is still an attempt to grant access to a large amount of music in one fell swoop.

Sound Choice GEM - http://www.soundchoicestore.com/gem-ser ... pg-59.html
Pros: Single Fee, No audit required, 320k pre-ripped content that you just drag and drop to your PC, you possess a disc which represents what you have "purchased"
Cons: Most expensive on a Cost per song basis, significant amount of irrelevant music

Pro/Con: It is licensed not owned. I set this apart because some people have a serious problem with this model while others have no issue with it all. I am indifferent

Also - The GEM product is completely separate from the Sound Choice audit and certification program. They stand alone from each other and should not be linked in any way.

Digitrax is also doing bulk licensing but I am not familiar with how they are managing it or there offerings. I have been meaning to call them and just have not gotten around to it yet -

http://karaokecloud.wordpress.com/2013/ ... log-sales/

I think bulk sales through individual companies are about as good as we will get and as good as we can expect for the foreseeable future. I would like to see more of a Stellar CAP model from the established manufacturers, but I am perfectly happy with the "download as needed model" provided by the multitude of sites out there.

For those that insist on having a physical object, there are the custom disc burners for newer music or the one off requests from singers.

Just don't expect the industry to unify around a "shifting fee" or other blanket licensing model anytime soon. They are still competitors.

-Chris

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-Chris

Yes Chris and if they can't unify that plays into the hands of the illegal operators. There will be no effective way to control piracy and the situation will continue like it currently is until the manus can come together. Even if they do there is still the question of the freeware status material. Have a blessed day.

guys...........
we have a universal shifting fee in place already. every manu allows shifting in the cost of the music with the exception of SC who requires another $150.00. pay that and you have universal shifting fees for all manus paid.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

If everything is paid then why all the drama, of course there is always one company not happy about the situation.

there is no drama. SC wants more to shift, their choice to do so. everyone else is good.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Seems rather silly that all this fuss is over $150.00. They make their label toxic for this small amount, makes me wonder if all this talk about them being solvent is just so much talk. They have missed several deadlines as far a new product and rehashed product is concerned. SC wants to be considered a viable company once again, are they close to that goal? Could it be that they are on the verge of imploding, like was discussed at the cloud summit? After all the imploding of still viable manus was to start in 2013 and we a nearly half way through the year. I have a great deal of respect for you as a certified host since you seem to be able to keep your objectivity. At least if something isn't working you have the courage to reason things out and do what is best for you and your business. Have a blessed day.

So you are saying Joe that they have no legal right to try and recover lost money? .[/quote]

My original post was deleted for reasons unknown.

My answer was that I NEVER said that- they certainly have the right to recoup losses- they just do so in the most unethical way possible.

That aside, Their logo is worthless, and is only included in a shift because- whether legally or not- it is attached to the TRACK- the track is is the ONLY way we pay are bills.

That aside,The question of WHOM to pay said fee to remains unanswered. The karaoke producers do not have the legal right to give permission to media shift a track so paying them is a waste of time- one would be paying for nothing.

That leaves the publishers/owners: They don't care-so far, don't need the fee- getting their money from BMI, etc..

They may in the future, but until then....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Yup. I know for a FACT that brand means nothing to a show in general, and feel truly bad for those hosts without the skills of the profession that truly feel that a single brand- no matter what it is- can make or brek their show. These hosts should try selling aluminim siding, working at McDonalds, or some other "no-skill" job, and leave Karaoke Hosting to us professionals....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

I have never claimed that a SINGLE brand could make or break a show. But I would never attempt to run a show with ONLY Music Maestro or ONLY Sweet Georgia Brown or ONLY NuTech products.

On the other hand, I could easily run a show with only Sound Choice, only Chartbuster, or only Stellar.

I have issued this challenge before.

Pull all of your Sound Choice, Chartbuster, Stellar Records, Pioneer, and DK. make sure you have a large complaint jar ready.

-Chris

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-Chris

Do you think a real good professional host can be a big hit with this type of library?

No special "brand" here!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/50-thousad-of-K ... 589f6e2558

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-- Mark

OK so you pay SC's fee to shift their trademark but you still don't have permission to shift the music and lyrics as they don't own the rights to them. Now the writers and artists finally get into it and they want their share too. Where would it all end? You could end up paying the Manu's, Artists, Writers, and whoever is involved with the original works. I'm not just talking SC now but all Karaoke.

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I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet

I think I need to clarify my statement, as both you and Timberlea have misunderstood it.

No one is purposely shifting the logo without also shifting the music and lyrics. It's these two things that are of use to the show- not the logo.

This means that if the fee isn't being paid to the publisher/owners ( who aren't interested at this time), then any fee paid to a karaoke mfr. is worthless, because the logo (with or without the permission of the publishers/owners) is connected to those tracks. Since the logo has no intrisic value to the show, and you could technically be nailed by the publishers/owners if they get in the mood, why bother sending $150 fees to each and every
label that you use ( Unless you just want to pay SC, but then we're back to what I consider protection money)?

EDIT: Whoops, I posted before reading Lone Wolf's post. Sorry.

Um....what he said....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."