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This scenario only applies if the number of bars hasn't changed, or increased at the same ratio as the population. If you have fewer bars, then it changes things up a bit. How many bars weathered the economic storm? And how many just simply shut down?

Where I live in Utah (I know we are not the "norm") we fight liquor laws, law enforcement, and the general attitude towards bar patrons. Utah is a state that is still 60% LDS ("Mormon" for all of you who don't know) and the percentage of bar patrons is low. The general perception of drinkers is they are "sinful" and drinking is morally wrong. Hence, the vast majority of people drink behind closed doors in private (adding credit to the home parties) We fight the state legislature in getting liquor licenses from the very beginning of opening a club. In fact, South Salt Lake City at one point had 34 bars/clubs with liquor licenses within about a 2 mile radius or less. The state blatantly came out to say they wanted that number down to 8 within 5 years. They succeeded in doing just that. You would think that those 8 remaining clubs/bars would be packed, right? Wrong!! they are even more dead than they were before the state pulled their ploy to decrease the number of bars. Same thing applies in the tiny county and towns I live in. People just don't want to be seen going into the bars in case someone tongue starts to wag.

With this type of obstacles, it is no wonder why bars cannot pay hosts what they once enjoyed. My friend and mentor was the very first KJ in Utah, and has been hosting since 1990. She used to host 6 nights per week, and now only gets 3 if she is lucky. I too, hosted 4 nights, now only do 2 (my choice tho). I haven't even seen a club in Utah that will pay more than $150 per night, most will only pay less than $100 because that is all the business can afford, simply because the amount of sales cannot even compare to the "good old days". Clubs that were once doing $2500 dollars per night, now find themselves hoping that they can clear $500. Like I said before, the only clubs doing well (in appearance) are the ones that the owners are very aggressively seeking customers.

Chris:
I hope you find some answers and can formulate a conclusion. Such information would be invaluable to the karaoke world. Bottom line here is this... if we as hosts do the very best job we can at hosting, we are still at the mercy of all the outside factors. My goal used to be the best host around. It used to be my ambition to be known everywhere in karaoke circles as the host to go to. Now, all I can hope for is to survive one more year, and then I will be calling it quits.

I would attribute it alot toward piracy myself. Like stated the supply and demand were totally opposite ends than they are today - less supply, more demand. Back then you actually had to put money into a system and the selection ($120 PER 28 song laserdisc at the time I started). We were making $200-$300 even $400 per show - with shows 5-6 nights a week, some with multiple nights which we would outsource and take a percentage like an agt fee. The prices started to go down around the time cdg's were being able to be copied with stand alone copiers and kj's trading their libraries willy nilly & making a copy of customer discs as they came in - in the late 90's, kj's could make around $175-MAYBE $300 on avg for clubs. The prices further dropped when the computer & hard drive scenes came along. Everyone had 100K songs, bought cheap equipment and called themselves karaoke. Going into bars and running shows for $160, then $150, then $100, then $75 or even less. I sold my 2nd rig in 2004 because I couldn't find any clubs anymore that wanted to pay my measly $150 price. Today is more supply & less demand. And I will stand by the crappy host pirates and even OMD lowballers helped lessen the demand as they were crappy to begin with, soured the venues, the venues may have gone through several of these cheap hosts, never made money because people don't follow and state karaoke doesn't work, not knowing what a 'good' company can bring to the table that might cost a little more.

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I agree the twin scourges of piracy and crap-i-oke have dealt the worst blows, followed by no smoking laws and increasingly harsh DUI laws.

I would have to go with lon on this one (to a certain extent) and say that Piracy has done a lot to take a huge chunk out of our wages. But, I would also have to say that the Joe Blow Karaoke customer that decided he could do this job easily for a few bucks has also made a big dent in the market for us with their bad karaoke shows giving karaoke in general a bad name.

I live and work in the Portland Oregon area. More Specifically I work in Hillsboro. The Funny thing is that if you work in the East Side Areas (Clackamus, Oregon City, Milwaukie, Etc) a good KJ is lucky to get $100 per night for a 4 hour show. however, I work in Hillsboro which is on the West side of the area and get a Minimum of $175 per night. So I guess it depends on the area.

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Sal "Kjmann" Esquivel
Karaoke With Sal - Website

I also agree that piracy has probably been the single biggest reason for the increase in supply, but maybe not the overwhelming reason (like piracy itself is responsible for at least half of the increase in supply). It seems like there is a perfect storm of factors. In addition to all of the reasons already mentioned, here's another:

In economics, there is a phenomenon known as the product life cycle. It basically says that there are (I think) 4 stages of a product's life. Think of an HDTV and apply it below.

In the early stages, efficiencies are low. Investments are high. Competition is low. Therefore, the price is very high.

During the growth stage, competition enters the marketplace. Efficiencies increase. Investments are lower. Demand is high. Profits are at their peak. The price comes down.

During the maturation stage, competition is at it's highest, as is efficiency. Demand is high at the beginning, but declines during this stage. Investments are at it's lowest. Competition leaves the marketplace because the profits are in a decline. That money seeks more lucrative opportunities in other products.

During the next stage, the product is reborn into a niche market. Profits increase slightly, but demand remains low.

So, we blame piracy because of the easy access to music. But, if you apply the product life cycle theory to karaoke music, even newer and legal hosts paid only a tiny fraction of what those that entered the industry at it's inception. I'm one of those. I have over 8,000 songs that come from Super-CDG's. I paid probably a little over $1,000 for those songs. A host who accumulated 8,000 songs during the 1990's - very early 2000's probably paid $8,000 for those songs (way more if they bought laser disks). And, I know there's a lot of others out there just like me.

But, all in all - as I said, it's a perfect storm of factors.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

I would tend to disagree with this one cycle in your analogy. Competition doesn't seem to have left. They have remained on. And then you have the additional pirates that came into the picture (which only added to that competition).

1) Back in the day, KJs brought in legal music on discs, plus layers, mixers, and other equipment that demanded some expertise and an investment. The bars STILL pay me near those rates because I bring in ten times as much revenue.

HOWEVER, a few dumbass hosts ( not talking about current hosts, but those back then- can't fix it now) decided to publicly display their use of a PC - something that was already in virtually EVERY HOUSEHOLD IN THE COUNTRY- to run the show. The source of music and mixing. This gave everyone's unlcle Lou the idea that THEY could make a buck at hosting. A few hundred for crappy speakers on sticks, a portable TV, and some mics- voila, instant host. Oh yeah, forgot about using MP3's- which could be stolen off the internet for free.

Enter the undercutter/pirate. If they were good hosts, yet could charge less thanks to the use of a PC (the idea that they got from foot-shooting KJs), the lowered the market. Of course, if they sucked and couldn't bring in the revenue, they had no effect- except to ruin a venue by giving them the impression that karaoke sucks.

2) The smoking ban ( absolutely illegal in NJ- our Supreme Court ruled bars private property, as opposed to libraries, municipal buildings, and other tax supported places, but Corzine bribed the casinos- the ones with the money to fight it- by letting them allow smoking to continue) caused HUGE losses here, as well as short sales, etc... While the outside world is ( I guess thankfully) embracing non-smoking, the majority of drinkers are still smokers- an oral thing. Corzine did it as a "feel-good" for the lobbyists- the folks who swore up and down that if bars were non-smoking, they'd go. BS. People either go to bars or not. If NS bars were so good, how come no one ever opened one here?

OK, I went off on a rant. The answer to your question is that the owners can still pay the big bucks, and you can still demand them-IF you can BRING IN the big bucks.

You want $300? Bring in over 2K ( Not just total ring - but above and beyond the income that the bar would have had if you weren't there.)

If you are one of those KJs that think that you aren't supposed to bring in new customers and income- but rather simply entertain the regs who would come anyway ( weird, IMHO, but I've seen some here)- forget it. you would be a negative cost to the bar rather than a source of income- and as such worth very little.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

After re-reading this thread a couple of times, it has reaffirmed to me that piracy was and is the root cause of the reduction in rates. Everything that has changed over the last 20 years can be attributed to how easy it is to obtain the music for zero cost and the technological advances that enable even the most novice computer user to figure out how to find it.

Piracy is the single greatest enabler for new and existing hosts to keep their costs rock-bottom which also enables them to undercut. This reduces the cost to startup almost nothing and other technologies have lowered the technical skill bar enough that anyone can be a host (note....I did not say a GOOD host).

I believe Joe when he says that hosts can still get a $200-$300 rate if they can also bring in the business. The inhibiting factor is finding venues large enough to support a cash flow of that size. I have never worked any venues that could even generate tills of that size because they are so small and just simply can't fit that many people in over an evening. The larger venues already have established shows and, until recently, I have had a fundamental issue with actively pursuing a gig where there is already a show.

But, I have reconsidered my position on pitching to a venue where a show already exists. Especially when I am reasonably sure it is a pirate show. If a pirate is going to occupy a venue and keep rates low in the process, then they are taking money out of my pocket. It is time to be more aggressive with taking those shows back.

Will all due respect to Sound Choice, their methodology does nothing for the dedicated, business focused hosts out there that are working for more than just gas and beer money. I know Sound Choice wants customers, but I don't believe converting pirates and leaving them in their gigs builds a long term, loyal customer base. It certainly doesn't show much appreciation for those of us who were legitimate from the start and are struggling to grow our businesses.

The short term view to sell a GEM to a pirate and leave them in place, means they made a single sale. Admittedly, this seems like a sound business strategy if executed properly because there are a ton of pirates out there. But I don't think the people they sue and sell GEMs to are thinking about how loyal they are going to be to Sound Choice in the future. A longer term view would be to help get the pirate out, opening the door for legitimate hosts to come in, with a possibility of making a GEM sale because a legitimate host needs the content to expand. Since legitimate hosts have always been more likely to purchase legitimate product in the first place, Sound Choice improves customer satisfaction by helping legit hosts expand which in turn increases the likelihood of future purchases by already loyal customers.

But I digress.

None of the manufacturers seem interested in getting rid of pirates. With only two entities actively pursuing pirates, the rest seem to have taken no interest in protecting their IP. That really does leave the ball in the court of the legitimate pro hosts to do something about it. We have limited legal resources at our disposal so we have to be very creative in how we take back the gigs that should be ours in the first place.

I recently contacted one of the largest hosting companies in the Seattle area (they run roughly 24 nights a week across a huge geographical area) about brainstorming around how we can get local legitimate hosts involved and make a unified effort to reduce the number of pirate shows in our area. Note - I am not talking about reducing the number of pirates or converting pirates to legitimate - I want them gone and out of venues that legitimates hosts can take over. I don't think there will be any immediate change in our area, but I am determined to do something about it and make a difference.

To give you an idea of what I am up against......I run 7 karaoke nights a week now. My business plan calls for running approximately 30 nights a week. That means I will be targeting 23 pirate shows to take over just for my business growth.

I feel like playing one of those Rocky movie training montage's right now.....

-Chris

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-Chris

I would think that great care should be taken in the pursuit of such activity. Any kind of assault against another businessman that does not have specific legal protections and permissions for pursuing with such tactics can be cause for actions of legal retaliation, whether said businessman is legitimate in your mind or not This doesn't even take into account potential non-legal retaliation, from people involved in a stereotypically volatile industry...

Business is business. Companies go in all the time trying to offer services. Coca Cola would love to knock Pepsi and every other cola out of the market, as would Pepsi to Coke. Same principle. Karaoke shouldn't be any different. Companies have tried to take my show. If I wasn't doing a good job, i'm sure they would have succeeded.

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Your position on this subject is at face value much less aggressive of an approach as I was interpreting was being exampled earlier in the thread, but either way, caution is not an unreasonable suggestion...

To be clear, I have no intention of coming in with a bunch of accusations about piracy, theft or any other negative campaigning. I am going to make my own determination about the legitimacy of the host and if I feel confident they are a pirate then I will market my services to the venue by selling my services and my company. I feel pretty confident that I can sell myself, even at a higher rate, with some creative albeit aggressive marketing.

-Chris

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-Chris

I have always felt uncomfortable about marketing to a venue with an existing host but heaven knows no one has had a problem coming into venues where I have a show (I just just got back the one I lost to the Beer Show host). Many hosts feel it is perfectly fine to leave something just in case "anything changes with your current host." I think one HAS to do that as I have not left my info at places only to find later the host left for their own reasons and the venue got someone else because they never knew I existed. But my first choice is to get a venue in the same town and then try to give them a run for their money.

As large as the Seattle metro area is, I don't believe that diluting it even further by avoiding existing karaoke venues is going to do anything for the karaoke community or be sustainable long term for my business. There are too many venues offering pirateoke and crapioke as it is. I think there needs to be fewer, quality, legitimate choices that innumerable, low-end, pirate choices. Taking venues from pirates, and improving on them will reduce piracy, keep singers in familiar territory, prevent dilution, and hopefully bolster my business. If, in the end, this helps me get a better rate, then that is about as much awesomeness as I can ask for.

-Chris

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-Chris

That is a point but there is also a certain satisfaction in beating a venue that KNEW they were hiring pirates and throwing their business to the venue that decided to do it correctly--somewhat of a fairy tale in practice but good on the rare times it happens.

Competition has left my marketplace - sort of. I know of at least 3 guys who aren't very good that would do shows if they could, but they don't because of the lack of opportunities. So, it's not necessarily a voluntary thing - it's survival of the fittest and those who aren't fit do leave, but not always by choice. That's economics.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

I'll argue that the supply of karaoke is the reason why rates have gone down.

And then, I'll say that the reason for the increase in supply is due to many factors. Perhaps the single biggest factor is easier access to music. For instance, technology has made it easier for hosts to acquire and conceal pirated music. Additionally, those hosts who entered the market during or after the the mid-200's and paid for their music enjoyed substantial savings (over 75%) compared to those who were in business during the 1990's.




You know what I have witness over and over again? A good karaoke host who has some motivation and a good reputation. They hire DJs and capitalize on their reputation. But, eventually, their hired DJs ruin their reputation and the next good karaoke host with motivation and a good reputation takes over. That is, until the cycle repeats itself.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

The thing that makes this hard to fit into regular economic or business cycle/trends is the amount of pure thievery that factors into this. How many other types of businesses try to survive with the amount that goes on in this industry?

You would be surprised. China has long been alleged to be a patent infringer. And, there's all kinds of knock offs when it comes to consumer goods.

But it does fit into economics. The primary dynamic that is studied in economics is supply and demand, and how it affects individuals and societies, over both the short term and long term.

The question here was: Why don't we get paid like they used to - back in the day?

It's supply. You couldn't live in a small-mid-size town prior to 2000 and have karaoke available 5-6 nights a week at multiple venues. It was only a few nights a week, and only at a few places.

Now, it seems that just about every other bar has a karaoke night. Part of that reason is because the rock and roll genre declined significantly over the last 10-15 years. That's when the kids started listening to contemporary R&B and Hip Hop. Those kids are now young adults, known to be the most lucrative customers to the bars. As the rock & roll generation ages, it becomes increasingly difficult for bars to make money off bands. The logical alternative is/was karaoke.

The main reason why there is karaoke everywhere is not just the increase in demand (from bar owners who seek alternatives to bands and "American Idolists" alike). It's because there are way more KJs. There are way more KJs because of the increase in demand and because the financial barrier has all but been lifted. Rent your music. Steal it. Buy it pennies on the dollar compared to the 1990's. Used powered mixer & speakers from the band that split up advertised on Craigslist, an old TV, and the computer your momma bought you for Christmas and your in business.

$60 a night plus 2 free drinks.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

Said more simply than I stated it, but just as accurate. I would add that in the current economic climate everyone is looking for a cheap way to bring in any income they can get.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."