Karaoke Forums

A copyright is a constitutional monopoly.

I view this as a six worded oversimplification. As this situation continues to develop, how overreaching it actually is will come more to light. Just because one generalized aspect of this endeavor might involve a "constitutional monopoly" doesn't mean it will be allowed to be exploited without appropriate controls put in place, or properly amended (also constitutional)...

I think it has been explained before that a copyright holder in the US has the right to set a price and to okay or not okay a use for their songs. So under our copyright laws they CAN differentiate between uses and charge differently. It isn't uniform. They may not have done so for CDs but they have done it for digital before--like ITunes et al is for home use and not DJ.

as far as i understood from Jim, the tracks are licensed, making them public instead of private is where ASCAP, BMI, SESAC come in. if they are not paid, public performance is unauthorized, pay them and that is your public license.
otherwise what are they there for?
publishers do not, and can not license for specific "use"

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

And these two posts probably more accurately describe the situation. The question remains: where is the actual legal line of what publishers and/or manufacturers can dictate about use, when there is a publisher-backed performance use structure in place???

Hello everyone I am back.....waves hi

Before I agreed to take a vacation from this forum as requested by my husband, I tried to get every host to do a bit of research themselves. Those that took the time to do so received one hell of an education.

No Paradigm you are wrong. If you take the time to speak with an IP attorney yourself you will find the publishers hold all the cards ( and from reading the threads Harrington has tried to say the same thing in many threads). The licencing rights have been specifically spelled out by them(the publishers) in every contract they have signed. The publishers have the right to differentiate between private(home use) and professional use and demand differing rates for each and ALSO differing rates for downloads and "hard copy" use.

As I tried to warn all the overseas manus are starting to block the US market due to the exclusion of the USA and Canada from the "worldwide" licencing they offered. Pressure is being applied to overseas manus that have continued to sell to the american market in violation of the licences.

If everyone would just take a minute to ask why a publisher would accept pennies for each overseas track when they can insist on dimes for each US produced track things would make a bit more sense.

The shake up is just starting...buy 'um while you can...I think we will see a huge decrease in availability of tracks here for the next few years. Owning your discs is still the safest method...and I dislike the import for resale ban more and more as time goes on.

Do the research yourself and listen or don't the choice belongs to each and every KJ

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Who is wrong?
from: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=25500&p=345738&hilit=+ascap#p345738


This quote is from October 18, 2012 (almost a year ago in vacation time).
I wonder what has changed since then?

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KNOW THYSELF

Based upon your quote from Harrington " the reality is that there is no mechanism whatsoever the manufacturer to obtain such licensing for the KJ." He is trying very hard to explain the reality of the situation.

the reality is that there is no mechanism whatsoever
I am assuming the word for the manufacturer to obtain such licensing

for the KJ[

Since a KJ can not obtain the required licence themselves why is this concept so difficult to grasp ? The venues are the only ones that can pay the pro fees.

It is legally the responsibility of the KJ to insure the tracks they use are licensed for use, this is a directly from our IP lawyer and has been upheld by Federal Judges in our area.

speculation warning as advised by IP attorney

At some point a defendant may try to use "the good faith" defense and if found to be liable, they could conceivably sue the manufacture to recover the losses in the first case.

The scenario above assumes the defendant has really deep pockets to pay legal fees and that the original manufacturer is still in existence.

I do not intend to be a test case.

It would appear the difficult part to grasp is actually the first sentence in that quote:






From: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=25149&p=342966&hilit=+ascap#p342966

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KNOW THYSELF

I agree with all that I have quoted from Athena.

Aren't you all glad that that "some" folks took the time to poke, nudge, loudly litigate, letter-write, and generally annoy the publishers/owners into action?

BTW- It's only MHO, but I believe the largest negative impact will be on the karaoke PRODUCERS rather than the KJs.
I often wonder if "some" folks do any long-term thinking before they act....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

There is an old Spanish proverb about "The squeaky wheel gets the grease". Really I don't mind the whiners getting greased but it looks like everyone else is going to get lubricated as well, that is the first step before insertion isn't it Joe? Now all will have to suffer the wrath of Kahan, at least the ones still in business.

i did ask an IP attorney, he is right here and he answered on here. so you are taking the position that Jim is wrong?
[/quote="HarringtonLaw"]"........I will also point out that you will NEVER see a document that states that ANY karaoke track is licensed for "use in U.S. based karaoke shows." You might have been speaking in a form of shorthand, but the reality is that there is no mechanism whatsoever the manufacturer to obtain such licensing for the KJ. What you could see would be a document that says that "production and distribution" of the karaoke track have been licensed for U.S. purposes, but that document will not cover public use because the licensing mechanism is handled by the venue of performance, through ASCAP/BMI/SESAC (or, more rarely, directly from the rights holders)........."[/quote]

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Perhaps we are talking about two different things? I was referring to the price difference between licensing to a karaoke manufacturer to Make/Sell a download for home use vs. broadcast use (ie a show). From what I have read, the holder of the rights can approve/decline and set the price for a specific use of their work--be it one time for a movie or to be sold as ring tones or to be made into a karaoke track in one form or another. Others on here seem to be talking about performance rights once the track is made.

Paradigm,

I think that the problem may be a disconnect between AND & OR

Pro fees must be paid by the venues AND Kj's are legally responsible to use properly licensed tracks....it is not and OR situation. The publishers are requiring different fees from the manus for home use and professional use & different fees for disc and downloads so the products are different.

A analogy that would fit would be : You must have a valid drivers licence to drive a car AND the car must be insured ...you can be ticketed for driving a uninsured car......even with a valid drivers licence. (This may be over simplified as other factors such as registration and inspection may also apply in some situations)

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

so Jim is mistaken

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Paradigm lets see where we agree and work from there ok ? maybe then we can meet in the middle.

Do you agree that "the alphabets" have to be paid by the venues as explained by Jim and quoted by you ?

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

of course, music can't be played commercially publicly without that.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

ok...good we have a starting point then

next issue

Do you understand that the publishers that own the rights to the songs can and do charge different amounts for different rights ?

IE they may charge 3 cents per use for permission to use a song as a ringtone...7 cents per use to allow the song to be produced on a CD....11 cents per use to be allowed for downloads ....thousands of dollars per use on a TV show or in a movie and so forth and so on.

This was covered sort of well at the karaoke summit as far as karaoke goes but info on non karaoke usages is very available on google.

If this make sense agree ...if not try and explain what is not connecting and we will try and pick it up right where the disconnect happens

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

we are still seeing eye to eye, they can charge for disc or download different prices. disc in this example is 7 cents per copy, if that is played at home, that is it, if it is played as a DJ, the alphabet soup gets involved, but the license is done.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Not quite. Whether OK to use or not, DT has offered MP3 downloads. SC is still in the disc market ( and yes, the GEMS can be played on almost any modern disc player without a PC) though the MP3 discs make it easier to transfer tracks to PC, which SC has no right to allow but will turn a blind eye.
Sorry Chris, but SC is still- as usual- behind.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."