Karaoke Forums

And No JD, the audit fees go to cover the cost of the audit....these are not moneymakers for the manufactures. remember these are trademark cases not copyright cases ( well PR is suing on both counts but we have no idea how that is going to work out).

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"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Now that we have both provided context, can we both agree that to date, an extremely small number of ODB hosts have been named and that their risk level is extremely low, and that not a single ODB host that has been named has "spent thousands of dollars" to clear themselves?

-Chris

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-Chris

I find it quite remarkable that the only people that say anything about having signed away rights or that there is any micro-analyzing or management of the audits, certification programs and GEM licensing are those that have never been through it.

I have never seen a post by anyone that has been audited, certified, or has a GEM that they feel they have been scrutinized or had any demand for an audit or anything else that you and many others claim it is like or will be like.

With all three certs (except my CAP which is a completely different matter), the process was simple, straightforward, and required very minimal effort on my part. None of the companies have ever asked me for anything at all in the last 1.5 years. I don't know of any other KJ that has had a horror story to tell about it either.

It is the small minority of certified and sometimes vocal hosts that are seemingly in the good graces of the manufacturers and have little to nothing to be concerned with. Where as a huge number of other folks should just make sure they dot their I's and cross their T's in the event the karaoke companies come sniffing around.

-Chris

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-Chris

JD, they don't make money on the audits themselves. However, if someone is found to be in violation and wants to correct things, then the manufacturer will make money from the sale of product to rectify the problem.

Chris, you are correct, at least in regard to this board. No one on here who has gone through the process has complained, nor has anyone said there were complaints from other people who had been audited. I have heard nothing about SC or CB going through financial records (other than maybe in regards to music purchases) or anything else. So those who think someone has been under the microscope or treated unfairly, please come forward with names and what the problem was, and most importantly who the person thought they were not treated properly.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Pretty much a moot point now. The giants seem to be starting to get involved. If they get into it fully, the ONLY audits that will matter will be THEIRS.

Even if you are pro-SC methodology for some reason, I would still wait a bit before bothering with their audit, as it may end up as much of a waste of money and time ( not good business) as Chartbusters' was.

Then, after the current dust settles, decide if an SC audit worth it.

No ick here, not even knocking the audit in this post- just mentioning possibilities and thoughts on business economy.

BTW: A profit IS made from the audit fees. The costs are service- not material- costs. Someone is being PAID for their time (as they should)- a PROFIT from service fees. I have no reason to believe that the entire fee is being given to someone not connected to SC- but I guess anything is possible....

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

I know of a KJ who is an ODB KJ, and he was named in one of the SC lawsuits (back in 2011). He was also Served papers after being named. This KJ did not have to spend "thousands of dollars," but this was his projected costs for being named in a lawsuit when he IS (not was), and always has been an ODB KJ:
Fortunately for him, I do not believe he had to spend the money for the Retainer Fee, because he managed to get things straightened out with SC before it went too far; however, it DID cost him $600 (listed in above itemization) to hire an IP Attorney to help him (when he received the notice that he had been Served, and he had to respond).

Now, admittedly, he did say that there was a mix-up in that names when he was originally contacted, and he believed that it was not meant for him. But then, when he was served with papers to appear, he was in a panic mode and did not know what to do. Granted SC and the KJ did work things out, and this case was dropped by SC. But, that's $600 that this KJ had to spend for being 1:None compliant (not to be confused with 1:1). As to whether SC compensated him for that, I have no idea.

As to how isolated or infrequent these types of occurrences are (suing an ODB KJ), we really don't know. All we have is Jame's say-so that they have improved upon their investigative methods, and who is sued. The only time that we are aware of another ODB KJ being sued, is when they actually come to this forum and post about it, or they make the Local News. Let's see now, I think the score is currently at 3 for that (from 2011 to present).

The gates are being swung open if you really listen to what was said at the summit. If the host leases or subscribes to the two manus, they will be welcomed back into the fold like nothing ever happened, what is that but AMNESTY. For the modest price of leasing GEM or paying $99.00 a month a host can purchase insurance that they will not be prosecuted. The truth is the manus themselves cannot make the pirates go away, there are more pirates today than when their campaign started. I'm glad you have no problem competing with the pirates, because that is what is going to happen if the manus win. All former pirates that remain in the industry will be competing with you, because they paid the manus price to stay in business. While it is true copyright and especially trademark are concepts that have been developed over the history of Western civilization. The U.S's laws have not kept pace with a modern global economy and are outdated in comparison with the rest of the world. So you see amnesty is being offered by the two manus for a price. Once they are paid for their product they are not going to bother about anything else that might be in the host's library, since they only have authority to regulate their product.

No one knows but the Shadow aka Jim.

Excuse me tim the way you worded your post if you owned a product that wasn't meant for PC use you couldn't shift it period. You would have to purchase a product that was designed specifically for use on the PC. At least that is the way I read your post.

If you want to talk about small numbers Chris what about the hosts that use a loaded jukeboxes? I have never heard of one of these being sued, or audited to see if they have the discs to backup what is on their machines. Is that because they are even more rare than the ODB operators? They are out here also.

Thanks cue for listing the potential costs to defend one of these suits if it does happen to go all the way. In the case of the alleged ODB KJ in Tennessee he has already by his own admission been forced to pay a substantial amount to have to defend himself. Due to the fact WWD/PR resumed their legal process without a proper auditing system in place. A mix up in names, sounds like shoddy investigation to me. We have to remember Jim says a lot of things. Most of which can't be proved one way or another, due to the lawyer, client privacy rules. That and sealed resolved cases. He can really put any kind of a spin that he wants to these out of court settlements, and no one would be the wiser, since he is the only one outside of the parties involved aware of the real outcomes.

Have you gone through the audits tim, if not how do you know you wouldn't complain about them? You would have no first hand knowledge. Oh that's right you are in Canada beyond the reach of the U.S. manus. Better yet has Insane's employer gone through auditing? I mean being so particular about court cases and manus rights, I would think he would check out who he works for and make sure they are kosher. Maybe the company Insane works for is leasing GEM and subscribing to Cloud and doesn't need an audit, since they have paid their dues?

Well I suppose I have the same right to comment as you do since YOU haven't gone through an audit. The only difference is I use a little logic and rationale while you like to spout doom and gloom that the Nazis are coming.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

I don't believe I have used the word Nazi at least since I came back from exile from this forum. Unless you think in the back of your mind this business tends to drift to fascism. I don't need to go through an audit with SC since I boycott their product and it is not used at least at my show, by me. I do have CB material but there is currently no audit system in place for that label. What gloom and doom, it's simple if you want to run a commercial karaoke service at least in the U.S. you have to pay off the proper people. I won't be running one soon so there is not need to payoff anyone. It is easy being on the outside looking in knowing nothing can possibly happen to you or your business.

What about them? Too few to be worth counting. At risk of pissing off any jukebox karaoke hosts that may be on the forum, they are insignificant.

-Chris

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-Chris

And all of the karaoke Jukeboxes require that discs be loaded...so they ARE disc based. These types of players are used mostly in a stationary location...when moved they have a tendency to snap discs(unless they were unloaded before being moved and relaoded at the location)...That was learned from personal experience many years ago.

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Thanks cue for listing the potential costs to defend one of these suits if it does happen to go all the way.

" In the case of the alleged ODB KJ in Tennessee he has already by his own admission been forced to pay a substantial amount to have to defend himself." Due to the fact WWD/PR resumed their legal process without a proper auditing system in place. "

And here in lays the rough rub....they dont have to offer a proactive audit or for that matter even allow media-shifting. The fact that SC does is a option they give to the legal hosts as a courtesy (kinda puts things in a different perspective when that FACT dawns on you doesn't it)

A mix up in names, sounds like shoddy investigation to me. Agreed

We have to remember Jim says a lot of things. Most of which can't be proved one way or another, due to the lawyer, client privacy rules. That and sealed resolved cases. He can really put any kind of a spin that he wants to these out of court settlements, and no one would be the wiser, since he is the only one outside of the parties involved aware of the real outcomes."

I know from KJ's and venues themselves what a number of outcomes were (it appears that SC takes the confidentiality a bit more serious than they do). I wouldnt say James is "spinning" anything based upon details in legal documentation and what these parties have relayed.


I wish the KJ's referenced would come to this forum and share what "the substantial amounts" were. "Substantial amounts" are a very relative opinion.

The listing that Cueball provided was helpful, but it did differ a lot from the one our IP attorney provided. Our consultation fee was higher, there were no set research fees listed, just a per hour cost, the retainer was MUCH higher and respected costs to trial were almost triple. But that may have differed due to the areas.

edited to make easier to read and follow

_________________
"Integrity is choosing your thoughts, words and actions based on your principles and values rather than for your personal gain."
Unknown
"if a man has integrity, nothing else matters, If a man has no integrity, nothing else matters."
Lee McGuffey

Athena, I agree with you 100% on that.

Gee Athena I guess you don't know everything about karaoke, makes me wonder about other things. The type of machine you are describing is an old carousel machine which yes I have seen also. The next generation machine is a hard drive one that can be anywhere in size from 320 GB to 2TB and can carry up to 50,000 karaoke tracks not compressed also it can store of course audio and video. The big draw back to them is you have to load them yourself unless you get one already loaded. I have only seen one of the more modern ones and the host was using it no problem. These hard drive machines have been around now at least since 2000. In fact only one host has ever said he used one of these machines mr.marog. I believe he said it is the easy way to do karaoke since you are just punching a number to bring up the song and not having to type out on the PC.

There is little chance that any of the defendants will come on here and discuss a pending case. There was that host that called himself Brewtus on another thread started by Insane. Here is an article giving a little more information about at least one of the hosts named.

http://www.wate.com/story/2270066/djs-m ... ar-lawsuit

It would seem that you can no longer directly log on to this page for some reason. You have to use the search and type in Karaoke bar lawsuit and the page will come up.

One thing is for sure Athena the higher the legal fees to fight one of these lawsuits, the more attractive buying insurance from one or both of the manus will be looking. At least for those who want to stay in the business.