Karaoke Forums

Scale certainly does play a factor here and that puts me closer to one end of the bell curve than others. I am okay with that and I accept that I will have a tougher go of things than single rig operators. But if my operation didn't exist, piracy still world and the industry would still be impacted just the same. If anything, legal multi-riggers have a more positive impact than single rig operators because we are more diverse and have a bigger stake. I want to make a difference, but it is going to take KJ's of all sizes to help make a dent.

-Chris

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-Chris

Chris multi-riggers have a positive impact if they are able to maintain quality and consistency of their show along with increasing the scale of their operation. Finding and keeping good operators must be difficult, since most of the good one's are either working for someone else like Insane or go into business for themselves. What is your turnover rate and how do you find the time to oversee these various shows?

"Oversee" - kind of depends on how you define that. I leverage the venue owners and barstaff for that. Essentially if they are happy and making money, then the host is doing their job. Lots of other things I could nit-pick about, but it boils down to those two things.

I only have 4 absolute rules when I bring someone on -

Start on time
Do not come to work F'd up or get F'd up on the job.
Respect the staff, singers and equipment.
Maintain a proper rotation

Otherwise, they own the rest of the show with their style, personality, etc.

The turnover I have experienced has been due to me not trusting my instincts. I have a soft spot for helping out people that need a break so long as they are helping themselves along the way. The two people I have had to let go each gave me a tickle in my brain that I chose to ignore. I no longer ignore it. In fact I know I am being overly selective now which makes things even harder.

I oversee mostly by proxy. When I finally cut someone loose to go solo, I leverage the venue owner and bar staff for most feedback. If they are happy and making money then 95% of the job is done. I visit each venue at least once a week to get paid/pay out and get that feedback.

This aspect is something I want to streamline as I am thinking of greatly expanding my coverage area. It just won't be feasible to maintain a day job (which is really an all the time job) and make a visit to every venue each week.

-Chris

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-Chris

1) I work the NY/NJ/CT tristate area- Tacoma would be considered a medium suburb. I've been at it since cassette and lyric sheet days. I too, have seen the crap hit the fan in regard to pricing, but have another theory in regard to it. I would also state that burned disc pirates had only the tiniest of impacts. Not just because there were so few by comparison to today's MP3 pirates, but because many of them used the extra money to buy decent equipment-and show equipment of any sort was much more expensive in those days.
On that note, one of the reasons that prices dropped dramatically was just that. Once KJs decided it would be a stupendous ideas to display the use ofPC's that could be found in virtually every household, they had a whole lot less to sell. They couldn't use the ownership of technical and expensive looking players ( and sometimes mixers) and a physical disc library as selling points.

All they have left to sell is their hosting skills. From what I've seen lately, a majority either don't know HOW to sell these skills, or have a pretty pitiful product to work with.

They walked in the door with what appeared to be (whether accurate or not) the same stuff that every other KJ walked in with- enhancing the misconception that all KJs are alike.

Without a visual show of quality from the outset, and a complet inability to explain and sell hosting skills, there was no REASON not to hire the lowest bidder.

3) This is the very thought process that has allowed many more experienced KJs let their QC slip, and new crappioke KJs to make an attempt- though the fact is, crappioke never lasts- though it can damage the venue market.

Because of the above statements regarding equipment- and at this point access to almost identical libraries for newer hosts- if one actually believes that hosting skills no longer matter, then one has absolutely NOTHING to set one apart from all other hosts, and has ZERO selling points.

Which means that one would have no reason to expect to get paid more or differently.

I would also add that MOST good business people/ bar owners- the ones I prefer to work for- would not want to risk a good 2 grand night due to top hosting skills for a 50 or even 100 dollar savings using an unknown/untested KJ. So far, in my experience, this has been the case- not just for me, but other long-time tested hosts.

I DO understand that in other parts of the country I read of less educated bar owners who might risk it. However, my area is probably the single most business competitive in the country, and bar owners here simply can't risk giving up what works because the next guy will snap it up and the first owner will simply be SOL.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Good post Joe quality of the show does matter, and the skills of the host makes a difference. Sometimes it is the only edge one has.

Here's an opposite scenario for you. There are a lot of small bars out there who, if they did it correctly, paid BMI and hired a good host could not afford to have karaoke just because of the seating capacity of the bar. It wouldn't support it. Yet they CAN afford to hire a $35 host. It wouldn't matter if a more expensive host did a better job because the bar can only hold so many people and they aren't going to make up the higher fee. So the $35 host isn't taking an actual job from the legit host but they are diluting out the clientele.

We have a small town out here with 3 bars and karaoke at all of them. The $35 show runs 3 nights a week. My friends do have the better show and they do get the larger crowd on their one night but it still gets diluted out a bit by the others. You have the people who walk back and forth to sing more plus the extra two nights cause people to have to ration their money if they want to go every night. So that takes from their till. The larger bar couldn't justify paying for a week night in order to compete because the population just isn't there. But a $35 bar can do that.

There are also situations where a bar might be the only game in town and will fill anyway so why pay more for the same result? The dynamics in a small town are a bit different than a large population area. BMI is making itself felt in the area, though. It will be interesting to see how many go back to just juke box when the dust settles.

From what you are posting it would seem L&L that the small town can only afford jukeboxes really. That there isn't the customer base or the money to really support a professional karaoke show. That only 35.00 a night with maybe a bar tab, karaoke host is all that is possible. The sad fact is that karaoke like real estate is all about location, location, location.

That is my point. Places that really couldn't afford karaoke normally can get cheap pirate hosts that nibble away at the places that have a potential to support a host. Yes, the good show can eventually win out. But everyone knows it takes time to start a show or weather the badmouthing and dirty tricks that often accompany the less than ethical hosts. In the meantime, the till is compromised thus jeopardizing the legit show.

It sounds like there is more than one bar in the small town. Now while the largest bar could maybe afford legal karaoke, you really can't expect the other venue owners not do what they can to try, and get their piece of the pie to stay in business. It would stand to reason the competition is not going to stand back and let the legit show establish itself without a fight. In a small area with no jobs it can be a matter of survival and people tend to become ruthless.

So you support the pirates in their effort to survive and put the legit hosts out of business? At least you have finally stated where you stand.

Who is saying anything about supporting the pirates? I said that you presented a small town situation. In the real world a business is not going to go under they are going to try and stay around. You don't like the way things are were you are at, yet you can't leave, so that means you have to deal with the situation as it is. It is what it is, that's all I'm saying. If you don't like it the thing to do is leave.

The question is, Is Piracy Really affecting KJs? I gave an example for a yes. At one point you don't think piracy affects kjs. Here you admit it is but say that's just the way it is. I think you just like to argue.

I don't like to argue especially, what I said is piracy has not effected me or my business, neither has the manus they have been both a net zero, at least for me. You want a solution to your small town problem and really there isn't any. The situation is not going to change anytime soon, unless the manus run the pirates out of town for you. You can't do it on your own, not without giving yourself a local black eye. Didn't you say one time some of these people had friends and relations in this small town. Well if it is like any small town I ever been in everybody knows everybody's business, and they don't like people rocking the boat, as I remember you aren't originally from this town are you?

I didn't ask for a solution. I gave an example. This isn't my show I am referring to. I have gone into the Boss Hogg mentality in small towns before.

If it's not your show then there is nothing to get upset about is there?

You are missing the point, probably on purpose. Nighty night.

When I think of a bar as small as you describe, I think of one nearby that seats maybe 20 and can hold maybe 15 more SRO. This place has tried karaoke and even open mic nights.

Leopard, while I see your point in regard to piracy, your example isn't a good argument in regard to it.

The place has to pay around $109.oo per year to BMI per their rate chart- negligible. They pay for a $35 host, that's what they will get. But even if they got a top host- as you yourself stated, they can only fit a small amount in the bar. You have 3 other karaoke venues in your town to whom those that were actually at the tiny place FOR KARAOKE would be distributed. You are talking about a couple of people per bar, as I'm sure some of those few that hang out at the tiny place would be there as regulars whether they had karaoke or not.

Any dilution should be negligible- especially if better host run better shows elsewhere- simply because the other bars sound like better venues too.

In other words, it seems that you have come up with the one scenario where an undercutter (pirate or legit) simply would have no effect- or shouldn't. The bottom line is that there is absolutely no reason why any of the other karaoke venues should be losing singers to a tiny dive with a $35 KJ- except KJs with a complete lack of hosting skills or ickier, nastier, or unpleasant venues.

[b][i][u]So why are 3 allegedly better venues -running shows with allegedly better hosts- losing singers to the tiny joint with the $35 KJ in the first place, and what have they done to resolve the problem? [/u][/i][/b] If they haven't been able to answer the question, then undercutting is not the problem. Undercutting means cheaper fees for the owner, but is meaningless to the patron. WHY are they going there instead?

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

No--you don't get the situation. Who says they pay BMI? That is why I think the increased BMI presence in the area may have an effect on this situation. These are venues that couldn't afford to have karaoke if they went about it legally. Yet they still nibble away.

My friends have had this show for almost a decade and they draw more than the others so don't call them bad hosts. In fact you have no right to assume that and it is pure arrogance to say that without having been to their show. They have outlasted at least 5 hosts next door yet they still keep coming. You have no idea what the economics of the situation are. You can't imagine it. A few people lost even for part of the night CAN make a difference in a poor town.

And there are a lot of poor towns in this country after the last recession. Our area is none to rich, I can tell you that.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

I agree with Joe on this.
The effect of paying BMI would be near zero to a small venue since the cost would certainly be less than $1 per day.
Tiny venues can only compete with tiny venues.
They don’t have enough space to compete with larger venues.
I know plenty of “kjs” with fully legit although small libraries that will host in small venues even without pay, out of their love for karaoke. In actuality, they are not competing with anyone because they are only entertaining the regulars that wouldn’t go somewhere else to begin with. Getting paid $35 per show would be plenty for a karaoke lover to cover the cost of adding new music without pirating anything.
The days of a pirate having a competitive edge over a KJ who buys music are over.
These days the only effect I see piracy having in the karaoke business is the damage they do to a karaoke producers’ ability to turn a profit selling piratable material. This does not impact a legit KJ any more than it does a pirate KJ.

The costs involved in becoming a KJ in 2013 are so very close to the same for a pirate KJ as it is for a KJ that pays for music as to be meaningless. It is the improvements in technology and the increased availability of cheap technology that have led to this situation.
Becoming a KJ requires no more skill, education, or investment than selling roses in a bar, mowing lawns, house cleaning, Pet sitting, or gathering metal and selling to a recycler. All of those things are easy to start doing with minimal investment and a sixth grade education, yet there are those who have been able to turn them into profitable business careers and did so in spite of the fact they are easy entry businesses with abundant and perpetual competition from those entering the business without overhead. How can that be?

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KNOW THYSELF