Karaoke Forums

The first come first serve method works for me. I actually get compliments on my rotation because they feel it's fair.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

The rule of thumb is that the perfect rotation is somewhere between 12 to 16 singers. The average singer wants the mike in their hand once every 30 to 45 min. If the wait gets to be over an hour then they start to loose interest. The perfect situation would be to have 15 great singers and a large crowd for an audience all buying drinks and food. Unfortunately these perfect situations happen more by chance than by planning. The one thing a host has to do is keep the flow moving with as little dead air time as possible. If you can keep the crowd happy and buying you are doing your job, and earning your pay.

I really hate to tell a new singer that there isn't time, or that they are just gonna have to wait. But, when it comes to fairness, I think that it is starting to become even more apparent based on the comments:

Giving a new singer priority thereby interjecting their performance ahead of established singers is unfair because the early songbirds:

1) Were there before the new singer

2) Show more support for the show than the new singer because they got there early, usually when the show NEEDS more singers.

3) Already have requests waiting

4) Already have a feel for the rotation, and are anticipating their normal turn

Can anyone make arguments WHY interjecting singers is fair? Or, when it might be appropriate? And why do you think it is appropriate?

I've heard a lot of "This is how I do it...." from those who give new singers priority, but no justification for doing so.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

Running a strict rotation format Troy I can see little reason to justify putting late comers on the rotation ahead of your core early patrons. I'm always at my gig at least an hour early, if I get 10 singers on the list I will start the karaoke there and then, another inducement to come in early. Once the singers are aware of the rules I noticed that they come in earlier stay longer and spend more money, than the ones looking for their 3 to 5 minutes of spotlight. All of my patrons treat each other as friends and get along well because they know they will all get a fair shot. There won't be a situation where someone will be rewarded for coming in late. Just like singing contests that go on for weeks you have the singers that start the contest and are pretty good, then late in the competition some ringer comes in that blows the judges away, is that fair?

It's funny you mention that. I thought about the same thing.

You are right, it's much the same. Both the new singer and the ringer come late (or come only for the contest), and they seem to get all the spoils.

In the mean time, the old singers get the shaft.

Still waiting for someone to justify why inserting a new singer is fair or the right thing to do....

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

Exactly what I do. I've only done a couple times. Perhaps you misunderstand what I mean. So:

Let's say I have 14 people in my rotation. If you come up to me with a songslip at 10:05 for your first song, you go to the end of my list of singers. You will most likely sing at 11:00 or shortly after. If you call me at 10:05 to tell me you will be off work and at the bar by 10:45, you will most likely sing at 11:00 or shortly after.

If after you inform me of your intentions and then I get a no call/no show, I won't let you use the call system any more.
This allows for the regulars who can't make it to the beginning of the show to not have to wait an hour if the rotation is that long.

I've only ever had one complaint regarding my rotation. It was a drunk guy accusing me of dropping him down in the rotation. Funny, that seems to be the type of rotations others use, I don't. New singers always go to the last slot at that moment, as I said I don't have a beginning or end of my rotation. At any given moment in time, the current singer is the beginning and whoever gave me a slip last (or just sung) is at the end.

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KingBing Entertainment C'mon Up! I have a song for you!!! [font=MS Sans Serif][/font]

Okay.....

First - Why am I at the bar doing a karaoke show? To encourage people to come in for a good time, stay longer, and spend more money. THIS IS MY JOB! If I fail at this, then I am out of a job so I do what I can to make as many people happy as possible.

Now....

Fair? - I announce how the rotation works at every show, everyone knows how it is going to go down. Everyone knows that I will FAIRLY distribute new and repeat singers. If you arrive early you will likely sing more often. If you arrive late you will probably sing once if at all.

Right? - Yes. It is right to accommodate people that arrive later to make them feel appreciated and encourage them to stay and spend money (<-- That is my job!). That takes care of the bar.

It is right for later arrivals to get to sing up because that is why they came. The early arrivals will still get to sing more often than later arrivals because they got their early. No matter how you manage new singers, the rotations will have more singers and take longer as the night goes on. Early arrivals will still have to wait longer to sing no matter what.

It is right for the crowd to see more variety. Nothing worse IMO than seeing the same 10 people singing the same 10 songs week in and week out. Don't get me wrong, they have every right to sing those same songs, but it will negatively impact attendance. Variety is key.

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If your goal is to sing 4-6 songs a night at my show, then I encourage you go to another show (I will even recommend a few places). It doesn't matter if you are the first singer in the rotation. You will not sing more than 3-4 songs a night at my show and very often will only get 2 in unless it is a very, very slow night.

If your goal is to sing 1-3 songs a night AND see a lot of variety AND have a great time, then please come by because that is exactly what happens every weekend.

That is why I do an insert method. It works for my style, my bar, my singers. It may not work for you, your bars, and your singers. Doesn't make me right and everyone else wrong. Just makes me successful at my bar and with my singers.

-Chris

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-Chris

Well, to me Chris's post looks like it has PLENTY of justification. Troy, you are trying to push YOUR ways on all of us. You run your show the way it works best for YOU and your customers, and let the rest of us do what works for us and OUR customers. My works for my show because I don't have 40 singers, yet. I just started at this place, cold. I am developing the show week by week. As time goes by, and more people come, I will modify things accordingly. As Chris said, no matter what you do, your early singers are going to wait longer as more singers arrive. If not YOU are doing something wrong, and playing favorites. THAT is what I hate in a show.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

Still doesn't matter, the people that were there from the start will still get more songs in than someone coming in later - and once that new person singers, they still have to wait the full rotation for their second song. I will NOT punish those people that cannot get to the club earlier due to work or other circumstances. Bar hoppers will occur no matter what. And wherever you place a new singer, it's going to push ALL that have been there down regardless.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

for WHY i think giving new singers priority is fair, re-read my last post.

1. New singers only get priority ONCE that makes it so that everyone gets treated the exact same way

2. The earlier you come, the more you sing.

everyone is happy

A Fair rotation means EVERYONE waits the same amount of time to sing their song; regardless of if it's their first song or their 5th song. If some singers have to wait longer than other singers; it isn't going to be fair to some singers and it will be considered preferential to some singers.

Every KJ has the right to do it their way but if you're inserting "new" singers earlier than they would sing if they waited an entire rotation to sing; you shouldn't be calling it a Fair rotation. If the person who just got done singing has to wait an hour to sing again; so should the person who just walked in the door. THAT IS FAIR; whether you like it or not.

i think it is fair, because if you do it properly everyone does wait aproximately the same amount of time AFTER their second song..


-james

Ok so really? HOW is that even fair to ANYONE? Someone calls you at 10 and say 'hey put me in i'll be there - what is the wait time' - you tell him an hour, then show up 5 minutes before the spot where you placed him into the rotation. In my eyes as a singer, all i'm seeing is a new guy walking through the door & getting right up to sing?? Since this is NOT your normal policy, and not knowing any other circumstances (again as a singer) I would think you are just playing favorites since when I came in as a new singer and turned in my slip at 10:15 (15 minutes AFTER you received the call), and now see this new guy come in and get right up BEFORE me (since the hour wait would put me at 11:15), that would tick me off good. Now if you were inserting the new singers, then i'd understand, but since you are sticking people at the bottom of the list, why is this new guy singing before me since I've been there for 45 minutes & he got there 5 minutes ago?

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

Common situation at karaoke; Show starts at 9PM and there are 15 people signed up before the show even starts.

New singer shows up at 9:05 and is now singer # 16 and waits about an hour to sing a song.

Another New singer shows up at 10PM and is now singer #17 and sings within 2 minutes because singer #16 was singing when he walked in and handed the Kj a song slip.

Singer #17 decides it's to his advantage to show up later and get to sing right away so he never shows up early again.

Singer #16 waits an hour and singer #17 waits just a couple of minutes. How is that fair?

Singer #17 should have been put between Singer #15 and Singer #16 in the NEXT ROTATION if he walked in while Singer #16 was singing. That is a fair rotation. Singer #16 and Singer #17 both wait the same amount of time. Luck is not a factor.

so you think it's fair....but with one condition? if there are conditions; it ISN'T FAIR!

FAIRNESS Means there are NO CONDITIONS.

I agree. But, let's take a look at this line:

I do what I can to make as many people happy as possible.

Indeed, you are making someone HAPPY, but - how is it fair to the people who have been waiting to have someone interjected ahead of them? Do you know for certain that they are happy about it? As an example:

I have regulars (often times, they are older) that come in all the time - early. But, when it starts getting a little busy, they're gone. Could it be that they know the wait time is now going to be a lot longer? I know for a fact that in at least one case (of a group of people), this is indeed true.

They're not unhappy, but they are leaving.



So, if everyone knows - what's to encourage them to get there earlier? A lot of people "go to church early so they can get a seat", or "go to the DMV early so they don't have to wait". Isn't it better to create that sort of forward thinking rather than a blanket policy that actually tells encourages them to get there whenever it is convenient for them?




I disagree with that statement. If you have a singer that has not performed in the current round and they are waiting to be called, unfair wait time can be measured by:

(the length of the song + singer transition) * number of singers interjected

To restate the amusement park method - nobody that gets in line while you are in line should be able to cut ahead of you. If that happened, wouldn't you feel like you have been screwed? Singers don't realize that this is happening, in most cases, but if they could envision it (like seeing someone literally being ushered to the front of the line), they wouldn't be happy about it. And look at us, still debating the merits of various rotation methods. Most KJs themselves don't truly understand the dynamics of a karaoke rotation.



I contend that a rotation that is unfair and/or too long encourages less variety. Put yourself in the shoes of the singer who has been waiting over an hour to sing their song. Are you more likely to sing one of your "go-to songs" or might you be more inclined to sing something that's not something you normally do. I remember when I was a singer, no way would I waste what might be my only time or two on stage doing something I didn't feel 1000% comfortable with.



You are lucky. But, as you said yourself, your show is made up primarily of transient customers - the vast majority, as I remember, you'll never see again.

In the age where access to music is easier than it has ever been, most of us have to compete for singers with other KJs that have just as many or more songs than us, just as engaging a personality, and the same (or better) ability to effectively run sound.

In that type of market, most of us have to build up a show. That might take several weeks before it is profitable. And even then, on a normal night, it could take 1-2 hours before we get a good sized rotation - if at all.

I'm not trying to push my method on anyone.

I have to compete. To those of you who don't have to compete, consider yourselves lucky. You guys can get away with a lot more than I can. But, when you have a show that is in the tank and you have to figure out how to get it out, you'll start thinking of ways to survive.

And that's when you'll realize - "Gee, I guess the most improvement could come at the first 2 hours".

Now, how do I get people here earlier.

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I'm not a cheerleader, but I paid for my pom poms with my own money!

Is luck really a factor? Could it be that the singers have shows timed through experience and know when to come in an take advantage of the short wait time? After all we have all seen singers who try and manipulate the rotation system to get extra turns, abuse of the duets etc. etc.

So if you figure out a way to take advantage of a loop hole in the system; all is well with the world? If you time it right, you should be able to cut in line? Good Grief!

I do compete against other KJ's. There are 3 other shows within walking distance of mine every Fri and Saturday.

Right and fair are subjective and there will never be a consensus among us on what the best rotation is for everybody. Do what works for you.

It boils down to this......what I do works for me....I don't get complaints.....Win.

If you are skeptical, come spend a night at my show. You may only singe twice, but you will have a great time.

-Chris

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-Chris

What I'm saying is every system has a weakness, because you have people who are the most intelligent creatures on the planet thinking about ways to beat any system, created by any other people. To them it is a game and you always have somebody trying to stack the odds in their favor. Whether it is the casino who thinks up the games or the crook trying to cheat the people with the stacked games. A simple rule is if you stay at the table long enough the house will win. Having said all that the strict rotation method works for me even with it's one flaw getting into the rotation before the next rotation begins. Still it is the most fair system that I have come up with and I don't get any complaints about it's fairness. Most of my customers are baby boomers, and I do basically a Golden Oldies Show. That type of crowd and that type of show doesn't appeal to the young bar hopping singers anyway. This baby boomer target market is the egg going threw the snake. Since the stock market rebounded they are also the group with the largest disposable income. I play to the crowd, and my target market.