Karaoke Forums

I suppose I am. Just like you.

-Chris

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-Chris

I did and have, though no paragon- just doing the best that I can in today's world... Since you are the ONLY one who has attempted to "correct" me, and you are both financially biased and professionally bound to do so, it is easily understood that you would continue to cry foul.

One example would be my friend who was both OMD and named- proving to me just how much "investigation" was involved. Wait- you will once again blame APS- who you should have been supervising- for this, even though you had full knowledge of their actions if from no other source than these forums. Jim, even the "cheerleaders" don't believe "no knowledge" bit anymore.

Or are you talking about the venues that will not only forbid SC to be used, but no longer allow public advertising because of SC's actions? I have ONE- count 'em- ONE venue left that allows me to use SC and also allows public advertising. Others here in other locations have stated the same. Two first person experiences- I KNOW.

"Correct" away, but it's pretty much a lost cause. Other KJs have had similar experiences across the country, and still others are starting to or have opened their eyes: Paradigm, Eric from Starz, Toqer ( the last two being disillusioned KIAA folks) even Chris, to some extent- and several others....

Your (meaning SC's, Jim- I don't know you personally) credibility and reputation have been flushed down the toilet due to the incredible amount of errors, unethical suits based on no evidence, and consistent statements later proved untrue. Yes, you keep "correcting" me in regard to no evidence suits being filed, yet when you get to court you don't seem to be able to produce what is neccesary. Even with KKS.

Bluntly put, one does not- in any business- crap where they eat, as SC has, and not expect a backlash.

I believe this is why PR was created- to do what SC has done, but to keep the DT label clean. In that respect, they learned enough from observing SC's failures to at least attempt to keep their label clean and maintain a customer base. We'll see how that turns out later. Of course in my opinion, after several years out of the new karaoke production business, a customer base is really no longer SC's concern.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Sub NJ for Tampa, and I feel the same way. Most conventions seem to be be meet and greets ( always a pleasure and sometimes a learning experience through sharing) and mfrs. pushing their wares ( also fun)- but not neccesarily a valid business expense if out of state.

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"No Contests, No Divas, Just A Good Time!"

" Disc based and loving it..."

Citation please.

Sounds like you are describing yourself Joe. No credibility and constantly making statements that are proven untrue.

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-- Mark

I believe this as well, and it's the very reason I refuse to do business with DT. My own personal choice. PR goes away and I may consider DT but for now, no way.

Actually I think PR is in the process of being even more ruthless than SC, since they are making no pretense as to going back into the production end of the business. They will be totally focused on the legal process since that is their only business. They renewed suits without a proper auditing system in place, which indicates at least to me they were going to sue, with no opportunity for the defendant to prove his or her innocence. Also this decision to go after non-profits such as the Moose Lodge is a big PR problem for PR, in the making.

So exactly what makes non-profit organizations different than anybody else? So are you saying if you were to slip and fall (their fault) in a non-profit place, breaking a leg, hip or whatever, which causes yo to be out of work for a while, that you wouldn't sue to recover your losses?

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Come on tim of course non-profit organizations carry liability insurance, just like you and me do, for our business's. Non-profits are set up different from regular business's they are not trying to make a profit. They are providing services to the community usually at no cost, giving back to the public. That is why they have a special tax status just like churches. The manus can't really argue that the money collected is typical venue profit, which they can recover, not without PR problems anyway. Can you sue them yes, is it a good idea probably not. You have to remember these non-profit organizations have many professional retired people who belong to them. Not to mention connections with local judges, and real law enforcement agencies. I'm sure organizations like the American Legion, VFW, Moose, especially the Elks, and the Eagles, have lawyers, and former lawyers that would represent them at no cost. That is why I think going after non-profits is basically a stupid move. Showing PR's greed and lack of good judgement in choosing their battles wisely. Something they should have learned from the SC example, I don't recall even SC going after non-profit organizations.

I was trying to get a show at a non-profit and asked if they paid their BMI et al and they said no way could they afford to do that. So basically they were not entirely on the up and up as to how they make their money. They are competing for customers with those who have to pay so as long as they are on the playing field then they are fair game. Being non-profit wouldn't excuse hiring pirates or not paying any required fees. They get some breaks as non-profits but they still have to operate within the law and under the rules.

I would like to know L&L which non-profit doesn't pay their BMI here in California they all do, since they also have bands, and jukeboxes as well as Karaoke, it would silly of them not to, and risk having the publishers get into the act. All of the veteran organizations pay, as well as all other service clubs. Maybe in your little area they don't, you can name the organization can't you? If they are a true non-profit in order to maintain their status they have to conform to the AB licensing for the state, if they sell alcohol on the premises. Part of the requirements is they pay all fees, just like a regular bar, of course some of them don't pay their fees.

I'm not going to bust them here. From what I've heard BMI has become very active in our area and even SESAC is on the prowl. So they may find the hiding days are over. I have not encountered a lot of places that pay around here. Many think they are covered by the juke box which doesn't cover karaoke, of course.

As for going after them for hiring pirates, I still think that a non-profit is fair game as they do compete with other bars for customers.

I'm not saying you couldn't go after them, what I'm saying it wouldn't be the wise thing to do. It would generate little cash for the manus and a great deal of negative PR for any company trying to do so. These are not local small business's, but rather national organizations that would fight back.

Or there could be some shake ups if some of the locals are violating their charters by not complying with national policies.

It is not a matter of national policies of the particular organization that is the problem L&L, it is a matter of not complying with State and local laws concerning the operating of a concern that sells alcohol. Something that is tightly controlled by State and Federal law. That is why it would be silly not to pay fees. Really this is much to do about nothing since not one non-profit has been sued and settled since this whole legal process began. That is what will be interesting about how PR deals with the Moose Lodge, will they settle out of court, will they dismiss the charges, or will they go to trial? If they go to trial what will be the outcome?

If it is much ado about nothing then why bring it up? Oh, I forgot--your'e the Ranger.

As for the state laws, it was tried here. Some people wrote letters to some of the State Boards about allowing illegal activities on the premises (piracy) being in violation of licenses. I never heard that anything came of it.

Why does all this fishing etc bug me? Easy, I own multiple rigs, and for 20+ years I could be called a "disk Who_e". My primary rigs have about 24,000 unique songs in each one, they are not identical on brands and selections but they are close on the selection part. One rig has 600+ SC disks, another has 100+ and a GEM (purchased for expansion not threatened or anything else). I play mostly SC for 2009 and older songs because that is what I bought over the years, until 2009 MOST people thought they were the best, most consistant versions. I print books but I do not list versions because it adds pages to an already expensive printing job. All my rigs have Pioneer, dk, allhits etc, etc. I purchased 1 set of top/pop monthlies for years and 2 years ago bought a bulk 2nd set direct from stellar. When CB went out I bought over 2000 disks direct from cb. I did the SC audit in 2011 because it was no big deal to me to prove what I own. Now I purchase direct from stellar multi sets, direct from the cloud the monthly releases and they bill me for multiple rigs. I get most of my all star disks from SC or k.com in multiples.
So what is my Beef? People who come into my shows for the first time think I must be a pirate because of my large selection. I have 2 Airline shipping cabinets 5x5x8 filled with boxed disks, unsorted at this point because I just keep throwing new purchased disks on top. I have my download records and Gretchen can verify my Cloud purchases. I am still waiting to get named in a suit just because I have a large selection and run on computer. I will not do a PR audit because it would take me weeks to sort, separate, and organize my disks for each system. If I do get sued, at this point I will show up in court with 8500 + disks and tell them to show me what I don't own. As far as permission to shift, I bought the right from SC , was told to my face in front of witnesses I had permission from CB reps at a Jolt get together in 2005 Quote "We don't care as long as you buy them." Stellar has been purchased in mp3g format since it came out.
An "investigator" who doesn't know crap could easily assume I am not legal, and if a suit was filed without talking to me first I would counter sue in a heartbeat. (luckily there are a few lawyers in the family). The guilty until proven innocent approach is BS. It might be easy to assume a 22 year old kid with 100000 songs doesn't own them, but I am 53 and have been in the business since 1991. I have nothing against sound choice or cb and wish sc would have new releases for me but it does bug me that I could be threatened, sued, or harassed by investigations that to this point have been proven to be (in many cases) half assed at best.
I don't want to fight any company that I used as a vendor for years, I just want to do my job.

I brought it up because it never was an issue until PR decided to make it an issue. I don't set the agenda for the manus, like others I do react to their actions. You know physics for every action there is an opposite but equal reaction. It is a lame move on PR's side and it will only make their legal process look more greedy and petty. Turning many former supporters against them, like there is currently division even in the cheerleader squad concerning PR's actions.

That is the whole problem even if you follow the rules and have crossed all the t's and dotted all the i's it is still possible to be named in a suit. The only way to avoid a problem for sure is to pay off the manus once more. That is what is truly wrong with this whole legal process. It is far too difficult to divide the legal from the illegal and therefore it is easier to treat all hosts as illegal, since according to their own records 95% really are in some degree or another. Who really has the morale high ground, since it is pretty evident that at one time or another most of the manus failed to pay proper licensing fees to the publishers? The two biggest offenders are the manus currently involved in this legal process drives sales business model. It would seem the pirates were stealing from other pirates, which proves once again there is no honor among thieves.

I do not like the "tone" of the PR threats / suits. For years, Chartbuster had no problem with people shifting as long as they purchased the product. They even sold the product in digital formats that would only run on PC based rigs. PR then acquires the trademarks and and tries to change the usage after the fact. I know SC changed their stance, but it was their product from the beginning, it was only delivered one way and they gave people a chance (originally free ) to continue to use shifted product. PR appears to have weak standing to change usage. Has PR won ANY suits yet that anyone is aware of?

As far as the Maunfacturers not paying rights, the publishers kept changing the rules there also on what to pay so I can't totally fault them. Pocket lost a suit there around 2001 on songs they paid for, but didn't pay the "correct" rights

PR did not make it an issue. YOU ARE! PR is suing KJs and Venues... The Moose Lodge is considered to be a Venue (regardless of whether they are a non-profit organization or not) Now, if the Moose Lodge is being sued, it's up to them to prove their innocence (or pay the price if they are guilty). PERIOD!!!