Karaoke Forums

Lone Ranger - you will never be able to make a case for why non-profits should be ignored when it comes to piracy, hiring pirates, or being held accountable for either. They are not exempt and there is no reason to feel sorry for them if they get busted.

There is no difference between suing a for-profit and suing a non-profit other than emotions. People seem to have an aversion to scrutinizing non-profits when in fact they deserve even more scrutiny than many publicly traded companies. They hide behind the veil of "we are doing good" when in fact they have many questionable business practices and pay their CEO's huge salaries just like everyone else.

Save of your "But...." and "What if...." and "How come...." stuff. You really do not have any argument here.

-Chris


I personally think the negative PR is worse for a non-profit that is trying to maintain an image of helping people or providing a service to the community but doing so in a manner that raises questions about their ethics and processes.

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-Chris

Tell all that to the children that are treated at no charge at the Shrine hospitals. The homeless Veterans that are helped by the American Legion and VFW. The Moose, Elks, Eagles, Knights of Columbus and other organizations that support various charities and also provide scholarships to needy students. I think there is a big difference between non-profits and regular bars and other venues. If you can't see the difference then there is no need in trying to explain it to you or the manus. To me that would be like going after a person's church, there are just somethings you don't do unless you want to call down the wrath of God on you.

I beg to differ with you the Moose Lodge is a private club open to members only and their guests. It is not a public venue. Don't worry their are plenty of retired lawyers and active ones that would represent the lodge if it ever goes to court at no cost to the lodge. PERIOD!!!

There is no doubt in my mind that the intent of the non-profit as a organization is to help people like the ones you have mentioned.

The problem is this - humans are human. In spit of all good intentions, there are those that will take advantage of situations, try to cut corners, etc.

If <fill in the name of your favorite non-profit or religious organization> KNOWINGLY hire and pay for a pirate to do karaoke for an event, they should be susceptible to the same scrutiny as any other organization. The cause makes no difference.



Are you telling me that you don't think the Catholic church has any responsibility regarding the massive number of sex abuse claims against them? Or are we supposed to excuse them because they are a church?

-Chris

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-Chris

THIS is why you scrutinize everyone -

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local ... 24111.html

-Chris

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-Chris

Of course the Catholic Church is responsible for the actions of their priests. The actions of the priests involved in such crimes, are not in keeping with the teachings of Jesus, who is the founder all modern Christian based sects. I don't think you can compare molesting children with karaoke piracy Chris. Unless you are saying the manus are children and they have been done by the pirates. One is criminal in nature, the other is merely a civil matter.

if a regular bar is sued because they are profiting from the activity, and a non-profit is not profiting, what is the problem?
that's like saying why not turn in our singers because many of them, have 100,000+ tracks over what any of us have.

why is it ok to look away from the largest population of thieves but not the private club?

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

And that exempts them from lawsuits - why? Do you think a parent wouldn't sue the Shriner's Hospital if their child was misdiagnosed? Do you think these non-profits are perfect and never make mistakes? Sorry every organization is liable for their mistakes or omissions or what have you.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

The answer is simple the private club is visible, even though they cater to a different group of patrons generally. It is felt by the manus they can't go after the home abusers without severe PR problems. In a way SC was smart about not going after the non-profits, that would have only added to their poor image problem.

For this exact scenario, sin is sin. There aren't levels of sin. Sin is a black and white thing from the perspective of Christianity which is why I chose that exact example.

However, why should the exact same crime committed by a for profit organization go un-prosecuted against a non-profit?

Like I said, you have absolutely no ground to stand on with this one and your continued arguments for leaving non-profits alone just serve to make you look bad. You really should let it go.

-Chris

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-Chris

So invisible crimes aren't crimes.

I don't think SC excluded non-profits intentionally. I figure they just didn't run across any.

-Chris

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-Chris

Did I say they were exempt from lawsuits? Jimbo said anyone can be sued for anything, like CAVS sued SC under civil RICO. The question is whether suing a non-profit is a smart move, especially when the chances of the non-profit fighting back are better than say individual host. What the manus are seeking are easy out of court settlements not costly court loses.

You mean Chris that SC filed over 100 suits and settled 1,000 host and venue cases, and the question of going after non-profits never came up? That PR on it's first suit in over a year decided to go after a non-profit just out of the clear blue sky, because it had never been done before? I would like to think SC weighted the pros and cons and decided it was not in their best interests to go down that particular road. I guess it all really depends on how successful PR is in suing non-profit organizations. Maybe they have found a new source of recovery, or maybe they have hit a hornets nest, only time will tell. What invisible crimes Chris? Every host knows that the home market is where the majority of theft of product has occurred. The only party that seems to think it is invisible are the manus trying to recover their lost money. They can only see the host and the venue he works for because it is out in public.

I have the very best ground to base an argument on that those that are without sin can bring charges and exact punishment according to Jesus. The manus hardly fit the being without sin part, since they have committed the same sin they accuse others of committing. They say the pirates stole from them, and they by not paying for the licensing fees stole from the publishers. Seems like with all the stealing going on people in glass houses should not be throwing any bricks. If you compare the sins of the non-profits to those of others in our drama, the degree of sin is much less with them. Really the manus are not in a strong position to be judging anyone.

What's bugging me is all the talk of non-profit businesses being somehow more noble and above the fray than a for-profit business.
Guess what? They are both forms of business.
The primary difference is that a nonprofit organization uses its profit to improve its services, rather than pay dividends to investors. The non-profit business does operate to generate a profit and then spends that profit by the end of their fiscal year.

When a non-profit disposes of their profit at the end of the year, a portion goes to the charitable cause to which they are tied and the rest is often used to pay higher salaries, bonuses, and perks to the executives and officers of the non-profit.

A non-profit business is still a business and is still subject to all laws that a for-profit business is with the exception of their tax breaks that also come with increased government scrutiny. In fact because of their ability to acquire public funding through tax breaks and grant money, they are deserving of more scrutiny than they currently receive to assure they are operated with integrity.



Non-profit businesses operate for many different reasons. Just because a company has a non-profit status does not mean the people behind it are operating to do public charitable works.

From Moose Lodge headquarters:
http://www.mooseintl.org/portal/pdf/Leg ... mation.pdf

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KNOW THYSELF

What is exactly wrong with organizations where the members band together to help one another? One thing you forget to mention is they also run a retirement home in Florida for the members when they become too old to take care of themselves. After all isn't that what most Conservatives believe in the government not helping individuals but private concerns taking a hand in caring for the poor and elderly? No tax dollars from the general fund going into the pot. That is why most non-profits get the special tax status in the first place.

Apparently the Moose Lodge is also aware of their own exposure to liability:
from: http://www.mooseintl.org/portal/pdf/Leg ... mation.pdf

Evidently they don't always have their doors closed to the public.

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KNOW THYSELF

As far as I know the legal requirements are that all guests must be signed in by a member, and they have to leave when the member leaves. That covers all state requirements at least in California and keeps us on proper terms with the AB.

First of all just because a club is "private", they still have to pay public performance fees. If they didn't then every bar out there would just call themselves a "private" club to avoid the fees.

Second, though these service clubs provide charitable services, there are tens of thousands, if not millions of businesses that either have their own charitable foundations or donate a great amount of money to many charities. One that comes to mind is Mickey D's (though I hate their food) does a wonderful job of charitable works with their foundation and assisting other charities. that goes for other fast food chains, soft drink companies, beer and alcohol manufacturers, banks, and a myriad of others. Because they do this, should they be exempt from the law of the land? No. Profit or non-profit, private or public, they must abide by the law and should not get special exemptions.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

It is a VENUE, whether it be a private club or not. It is a VENUE, whether it be a profit or non-profit organization. It is a VENUE because it is charging for something and offering up services as part of its membership. PERIOD!!!!!!!!

Oh, and by the way, on Karaoke Nights, usually The Moose Lodge opens its doors to the GENERAL PUBLIC (meaning non-members), because they are trying to make a few extra dollars to help support their specific chapter of their organization.

Well then, let the Wrath of God be brought down upon PR, LLC for choosing to sue a non-profit organization such as The Moose Lodge. That's NOT YOUR PROBLEM!