Karaoke Forums

Tell that to the thousands, if not tens of thousands of Dollar Stores. People will buy cheap because it IS cheap.

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My experience with a HD player is not CAVS per say, you are aware Chris that there are other manufacturers of HD players. U-Best, RSQ, to name two and there are others. Many singers have told me they don't like the sound quality on the PC based systems they have experienced. They told me my HD player was different and they could hear the difference in the sound quality. That is due to the fact you take the original studio disc and load directly on to the hard drive. All you need is to input the number of the song which is faster than typing on Karma to look for Artist and then scroll to the song. The song pops up promptly with no time lag. I should know I used the HD player exclusively for nine years and out played the local PC jockeys hands down.

P.S. Insecure? You are not going on line with it, I would think it is more secure since you have no chance of getting a virus from the internet if the host has his PC on it while performing.

You forgot about Wal Mart as well tim. When you are talking about a good quality real HD player you are talking about a machine that can cost $600.00 and up, it is not a cheap machine.

Well LR, I see you "misunderstood" again. You stated if someone sold inferior products, they would go out of business. I just countered with all those Dollar Stores that sell in the vast most part inferior products and yet they are doing a booming business.

As for what YOU use, we weren't talking about that, we were talking about CAVs and their product.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

We really don't keep a count, but it's a small fraction at most. I suspect it may be due to cost differentials and equipment familiarity.

We were talking about an inferior product of which CAVS was listed as an inferior product by several hosts. You brought up Dollar Stores, we were not talking about dollar CAVS machines, so bringing up dollar stores is comparing apples to oranges it is not the same thing. Oh I thought all HD player machines were considered inferior products by the laptop hosts, mainly because they have never really used them to any great extent. Both systems have their good and bad points, I have had good results using the HD player. Just like I'm sure some hosts have learned to use the PC systems. It is all a matter of taste and experience.

Every hard drive stand alone player I've played with (yes I have played with several over the years) beit cavs or others have been very limited in what they can do and for the most part over priced compared to a good computer and software program that do much much more and then some. The ripping in a non-loss format is moot anymore since many of the software programs have the ability to play lossless formats as well.

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So what if they are limited in what they do. What do they really have to do? They need to be able to store data, they have to be able to retrieve that data, and they have to be able to generate lists to make songbooks. Anything else that needs to be done can be done by the host, without the aid of a computer, if the host chooses to go that route. At least in my experience they have been totally reliable and have never crashed, which is more than I can say for PC based systems. I have run across venues that have had bad experiences with hosts whose PC has gone down and no show, that is how I got some of my gigs. I don't feel that a non-loss format is a moot point. Many singers feel that the sound quality of PC systems are inferior, and they dislike the attitude of some PC hosts, that playing the patrons discs is such an imposition.
When you consider you are getting a hard drive and a quality player in the same package the cost is really less than, a PC system with all the software and a good quality player. Also it is important to factor in by Jim's own admission the number of HD player hosts that have been sued is close to nil. I doubt if there have been any the way this issue is always dismissed. In that case being rare is also an advantage legally, that is why probably I was never sued in 19 years in the business.

This i don't fully understand...and you're a Microsoft Guy right?
Please explain.

I don't understand it either john since this machine is not for going on line with so how could it be possibly insecure. I guess someone could steal the machine or the hard drive but they could not do that over the internet, they would have to lift them in person. Unlike the PC there is no chance of catching a virus as long as all you are doing is loading discs. One thing Chris should also think about it would take far less time to train an operator to run a HD player than a PC with the Karma soft wear. How long would it take to show someone how to punch in the track's id number?

This whole post is filled with bad logical fallacies.


This is anecdotal. I have never had a PC crash at a show. Therefor I should believe that PC's never crash at shows. Right? Of course not. Same for your magic box. An idiot with no backup, be it a PC or a second magic box is the fool. Not the device.


Apples/Oranges. The sound quality of a show is determined by the entire audio chain. Your magic box into a killer PA is going to sound better than anything into a crappy one and vice versa.


Broad brush. A PC host can still play discs and many do. Owning a magic box does not mean you have an exclusive on discs.


Only if you don't shop around. I bought my show Thinkpads on eBay for $200 each. I have two. Refurbs and still going strong four years later.


A red herring. Owning the discs is owning the discs. The type of player you put them in has ZERO bearing on whether or not you are legal or going to get sued.
I would say the reason nobody has been sued using a magic box, is because Professional KJ's don't use magic boxes. Not because it has some kind of "anti-lawsuit" coating.

Two things -

First - This is the CAVS page for the JB-199 - http://www.cavsusa.com/199.html - where they call out the following -

"Remote access and management using network or Internet" - These units are also designed so they can - "Connect to E-Songbook, iPhone, iPad, and Androids" (which requires network access).

They also tout the JB-199 Server as "CAVS JB-199 II Server Digital Jukebox enables sharing of song data by networking up to 9 client units." Connecting clients and machines to networks and the Internet is something they actively promote.

They have significant sections in their user manuals, online help, and the user forums dedicated to troubleshooting network connectivity. If these machines are connected to any network ever, they are highly susceptible to being compromised.

Two - I can train you in 60 seconds how to use the bare necessities of Karma.....



-Chris

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-Chris

If you have not figured out yet, I am not a fan of the CAVS players. They have gotten better over time, but in their base units they are just selling you something that you can do yourself for a lot less money. But it is the insecurity of using Windows XP as the base that really gets me.

But it goes beyond that.

I have yet to meet a CAVS KJ that keeps their music updated. To be fair, there are very few CAVS KJ's I have run across in my area in the last 7 years. But those I have are budget KJ's with music selections that have not been updated in years.

Most of the PC based KJ's I have run across do update their music regularly (be they pirate or legal). There are several who have started to "Buy On The Fly" like I do to service their singers.

CAVS and other dedicated karaoke players have their place in the karaoke world. But in my experience, they are generally being used by KJ's that charge a premium price for shows or by KJ's that regularly update their music.

There are exceptions, but they seem to be very few and far between.

Also, I can't tell you how many abandoned CAVS units I have run across while scouting gigs. Three of my current venues have CAVS units in their back rooms that were left by previous hosts. Not once have I run across an abandoned karaoke laptop.

If you look at my video, I can search for a song or artist and instantly give options to singers by quickly checking the length of a song, the waveform to see if there are speaking or rap sections, and very easily swap to a different version of the same song in seconds while a singer is on stage if they don't like the one they started with. All without having to look up some proprietary code. I don't believe it is even possible on a CAVS unit to search for every version of "Achy Break Heart" and then select the one you want to use.

The only advantage I see to CAVS units is that you can buy a single piece solution with music pre-loaded to it. If you have no interest in ripping your own discs down and you won't be adding music regularly, then the CAVS unit is your thing. If you will be adding music regularly, use discs or a modern PC. If you have a high volume show with heavy/fast rotations, use a modern PC.

To reiterate again - There are exceptions. But exceptions by rule are somewhat rare. I expect many of those rare exceptions will be the CAVS users that read these forums. So please do not be offended.

There are still more lazy, crappy PC hosts out there than there are lazy, crappy CAVS hosts.

-Chris

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-Chris

i think only one thing needs to be said regarding CAVs units.



Went to their website. New JB-199 play with a 1TB hard drive MSRP - $1649

I can get a second hand laptop with a 1TB drive, a lexicon alpha usb interface, and even if I use a really expensive hosting program like compuhost and added essential programs like PowerCDG AND KJ File manager it would STILL be less than $500.


That's over 3X the price for something that doesn't even come close to what you can do with a computer.


and what happens if you need to replace something? If a laptop breaks down, you either fix it or get a new one. You also save time on labour by either swapping out the new drive with your already loaded karaoke music, OR by updating from backups.

If the CAVS unit breaks and is not under waruntee your SOL

-James

Thank you Chris. And well said. I agree. I went to laptop from 199 many years back because of the PITA time it took loading the machine and the very limited features.

I never had to put the machine on line or used their hosting platform so i never encountered any problems with security. I still support their 199 use because i have kj friends in South Carolina that load and use them properly and still swear by them to this day. They were the ones that introduced me to the cavs machines since i was tired of being disc-based for over 10 years. For anyone it IS easier to push numbered buttons, but the search feature on the 199s sucked.

You can also buy a U-Best 368 DA HD player with USB port for under 600.00 dollars the larger the HD the more you pay. I still have my original 168-DA that I bought 9 years ago and it still works . How many cheap PC's have you gone through in the same 9 years?

For goodness' sake, if there were only one reason I have LR on "ignore," it would be obtuse commentary such as the above. (I only read it because someone else quoted it.) Once again, LR has made up facts and misrepresented my statements to give the impression that I said something I did not say.

I did not say (or "admit") that the number of HD player hosts that have been sued is "close to nil."

I said, in response to an inquiry about investigations, that (1) we don't track it, so I can't say for certain how many there are, and (2) it's a small fraction at most.

Considering that there have been more than 1,000 defendants in SC actions, with new cases being filed every month, even a small fraction would not be "close to nil." (1/10 is a small fraction, but would represent more than 100 defendants.) I know that the number is not zero, nor close to it. But the far greater number of defendants use systems that are based on general-purpose computers, not special-purpose hard-drive-containing systems.

Even more importantly, no decision to sue has ever been based on the type of equipment being used. A KJ who uses any type of media-shifted SC product for commercial shows without SC's permission is subject to suit. The use of a laptop, a CAVS machine, an RSQ player, or any other device other than something that is reading original discs, while an interesting fact that we make note of in our investigations, is utterly irrelevant to the decision to sue. What matters is the apparent use of counterfeit materials, irrespective of the form.

As for LR, there are two reasons why he was never sued by SC. First, he operated in an area where we lacked investigative coverage, insofar as I am aware. Second, by his own admission, he DID NOT USE SC, so even if we did send an investigator to his show, that investigator would have reported that no SC was played.

Thanks Jim for admitting that at least 10% of the professional hosts you sued used a HD player. I knew if I threw something out there you could not resist the tendency to correct me. Only you would have access to the exact numbers of HD player systems v.s. PC player systems that were settled by SC, since the details of the settlements is a secret. If we accept your figure as a sample of the hosts working in the business, and we take the total number of hosts nationally it would appear there are at least several thousand hosts using a HD player system. Still a good round number and not as rare as the PC hosts would have us believe.

For a host that doesn't want to take advantage of all the software has to offer, then sure a standalone hard drive player is great and they can do everything manually.
I like the fact that I can store each singers song history with key changes, put up special graphics or sound bytes in an instance for occasions, track song stats for top 50, 100, 1000 (or any number) songs sung, normalize on the fly the volumes of every song, etc. These are just a couple things.

The crash ration of a good computer and software are so low it's not a factor. Mine has crashed maybe 5 times in the last year. Not detrimental. And the lossless factor is moot point because I said most of the softwares today will play in a lossless format.
Most of the singers that have heard computer shows most likely heard low bit rate rips & the computer hooked up via the headphone jack of the sound card. If those same people heard a computer with a good rip (even 320 mp3) going through a professional audio sound card - I guarantee they would not hear any difference between that and a disc.
I do agree about some computer kj's not playing customer discs - I always have and will, but I also know disc based kj's that won't play customer discs either.

Again with no bells or whistles that many hosts take advantage of that the standalone simply cannot do. I'd rather pay a little more for the PC route and get the added specials that a standalone simply cannot do.

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And that is just fine Lonnie I didn't need the bells or whistles, also your rig crashed 5 times in the last year. I still have my original HD player and it still works fine, and it has never crashed. Again it is just a matter of taste and experience.