Karaoke Forums

Hehehe...I guess restaurant rotations might be different from pub ones, (not that I've ever done them differently) but I can just see it now:

Table furthest to my left...we'll have Karen from your table to sing
Next table...let's have Tom up
Table three....Joe, it's your turn....

Stop shouting those of you standing at the bar!  I'll get to you eventually!  LOL

The rotation must be managed so as to meet the client venues objectives. High value patrons should be encouraged and water drinkers discouraged. I have outlined a singer rotation that I use and have instructed all hosts who work for me to follow. I call it the Karaoke Sydney Method. It is named after the site it was written for.

It has proven very controversial as it is based on patron value to the venue as it's underlying principal. I wrote it so as to answer patrons who complained about the way I managed a singer rotation. Despite it's many opponents I stick to it rigidly as it suites my clients, the venue, who pay me to add value to their bottom line. And keep my mortgage paid. To see the full details go to:
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I'd love to get some suggestions and feed back.

Regards
Nathan

Would you mind PMing the link to me? I would like to see how you are doing it.

I don't favor high paying customers over water drinkers. IMO, that is the bars job, not mine.

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-Chris

I don't think that would fair well at the place I work. Someone that may not spend brings in several that do. Cut them off, the others quit coming in.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I googled it and, from a singer's perspective? I don't mind it. I know there are some who would (especially some folks who've been conspicuously absent for some time), but not me. I like the fact that it's fairly well structured, allows a specific method for new singers, and on special occasions, gives preferential treatment to the birthday person/groom/bride/etc.

It seems like it'd be a pain to run, though. Still, if I'm ever in Australia, I would swing by.

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Co-host of The Greatest Song Ever Sung (Poorly), a karaoke-themed podcast

I just Binged it (ha!) and read through it. Not the way I would run things, but not too different than the way a lot of hosting is performed. I do my best to never play favorites. I make exceptions now and then for special occasions but I don't go out of my way to make those exceptions.

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-Chris

During season, which is now and much earlier than normal, my venue only holds about 110 in the main room and every seat has a dollar figure attached to it. When people come and don't spend it is lost revenue, because someone else could have been sitting there that was spending money. Last Wednesday we were completely filled by 7:30 and a couple came in and sat at the bar and one of them ordered decaf coffee and only decaf coffee. The owner caught wind of that and asked them to leave if that was all they intended to spend, so they left. Immediately after they left 2 more people filled the seats.

And that is where the responsibility rests... on the Owner's shoulders, not the KJ. You can give me any arguement you want about securing your job at a venue, but the bottom line is, you (the KJ) can not force anyone to spend money or buy drinks.

If you were getting a cut of the bar, I can see where this might prove fruitful. Otherwise, you are just needlessly pissing people off for no benefit to the KJ.

I have to say, I am intrigued by the "Frequent Flyer" type method however! I am a Delta Platinum as I fly extensively for my weekday job. They base status on both miles (IE: How often you come to Karaoke night) and how much you spend annually on tickets (IE: How much you spend at the bar). The higher the status, the better the perks. It certainly could work, but you'd have to have a way to accurately track the dollar amount spent by of every patron and their attendance record.

At the place that I host at we have an older crowd and a lot have their own cd's that they carry with them. They have a herd mentality and often come in in large numbers and that is good, but the bad is that most can't sing. It got so bad that they were driving other singers and listeners away. The owner was hard pressed for a solution to the problem so I proposed to stop playing their cd's. On some evenings there would be as many as 8-12 singers from this group alone and not a single one of them would sing a fast song. I would have to play Cupid Shuffle, or something, to break up the boredom.

The next week the "herd" showed up and I explained that I had decided to stop playing their cd's because it caused some problems such as skipping, poor graphics, etc. I told them that I could read their cd and see if I had their version and if I did I would use mine and if I didn't I would let them know. That evening went pretty well but I haven't seen them since. I had succeeded in eliminating a problem that was damaging our show without hurting anyone.

I still have my player in my rig so that I can identify their songs, which I feel eases their fears of not getting the correct version, but I have stopped playing them for now. During "season" my shows are jam packed and there is no shortage of singers and listeners. We get reservations for a table a week or more in advance. In the off season I may need to bring my player out of retirement.

"Last in Last to Sing" All night every night.

Name me one other avocation where showing up late entitles you to preferential treatment.



You want to sing? Get here early and support the venue.
"Johnny already sang a song and I haven't". Well Johnny's been here for 2 hours and has purchased 3 drinks. You've been here 10 minutes, haven't purchased a thing and are rolling your eyes because you need to meet you GF's down the street in 10 minutes.

People DO like structured rules as long as they are applied consistently. When you change things based on random events you throw away the ability to prove that you are consistent.

With "Last in Last to Sing" and a continuously running scroller ALL of your singers new and old know exactly where they stand. New singer's can read the scroller, multiply number of singers x 5min and know right away how long till they would sing. They can then choose whether the venue is worth the wait or not. The current singers can do the same from their current position in the rotation and be confident of the time they will sing again.
No singer of mine will EVER look at the scroller 10 minutes after they last checked and find they are further away from singing than they were 10 minutes ago.




No matter what rotation you choose announce your method often both through signage and announcements. Give your customers the ability to decide for themselves whether the wait is acceptable to them or not.

Bribes? never. If someone offers an ungodly amount I tell them . .. "I'll ask over the PA after this song if there is anyone who wants to sell their spot on this rotation" Amazing how most of them when confronted on the attempted bribe will say . . . ah ummm never mind. Public shame is still a somewhat effective tool. For those Diehard my s&*t don't stink people I go ahead and make the announcement. If some other singer is willing to give up their dignity for the bucks then the transaction is entirely between them. Buyer gets the spot, seller loses the spot for this rotation. The rest of the singers are unaffected.

If I were devalued because I drink soda, Then I would walk out get on yelp or whatever social media site that takes comments and bad mouth the place something like great place to go unless you don't drink what they want you to drink. As a show host I play my rotation pretty much as the way I felt was the fairest which is when in the rotation you put your name in is the last to sing in the rotation and encourages singers to come back regardless of how much they spend. If they don't spend what the management of the bar wants then its their responsibility to run them out.

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The Line Array Experiment is over. Nothing to see here. Move along.

That very presumptuous of you!!! If someone is coming up to tell me that "Johnny has already sung a song and I haven't.", I would assume that to mean that person was there long enough to hear Johnny sing twice already. That would be implying that that person was skipped somewhere along the way in the rotation, and not that that person just arrived "10 minutes ago." And it's even more insulting (on your part) to jump to the conclusion that
A. the person could have shown up earlier.
B. the person just came to do a drive-by (sing and run).



Again, very INSULTING on your part!!! Why do you consider a person who is waiting patiently for their turn to sing, as someone who is "giving up their dignity" if they are selling their place in line (for, let's say, $20) to someone who doesn't have the patience to wait their turn. Some people don't feel it's that important to sing in every single round/rotation. So what, if they get a little something for giving up a turn. The person who has no dignity (and lacks a few other things as well) is the one who is offering the bribe in the first place.

Not presumptuous at all when it is a real world event that actually happened less than two months ago.
"With Last in Last to sing" the only way to ever get skipped is to not be there when your name has been called 3 times. With a scroller continuously displaying a true countdown of singers and no hanky panky going on there is no real excuse for a singer to not be in the building when their name is called.

I don't think anyone would have a problem if you drank multiple cokes, but just one or two for the entire evening would not pay for your use of the stage. I figure if a host does a show for 4 hours at $200 bucks and cranks out 60 songs during the 4 hours, then the host in reality charges $3.33 for every song sung. If there are 20 singers then each one of them uses $10 in stage time ($200 divided by 20 singers). This holds particularly true if the singer comes in alone and doesn't have fans coming in to listen to them . Singers that bring in other low spending people also decrease profits because they occupy valuable space that could be filled with bigger spenders. Again this holds true ONLY in an always full venue. If the bar isn't full, and there is always available seating, then any additional dollar adds to profits as long as they don't require too much additional wait staff ( asking for tap water every 15 minutes and not leaving a tip).

So how much does the bar have to earn (gross charges to customers) in order to net $10 that the singer consumed during his/her 3 songs. I will bet that it is more than 2 times that amount. So using a conservative 2x multplier a "low spender" would have to spend $20 to pay for their stage time, and leaving the bar with zero profits in return. There are so many variables that come into play if a bar isn't at full capacity that much of my conclusions are null and void.

Now if the singer is a "high value" singer, in that he/she brings in big spenders with them and/or attracts bigger spenders, then they have "earned value". The problem with that is when the low spending singer sees that the high value singer doesn't spend much money either. That is when this falls apart. You have now a lost customer, and there is a cost attached to getting a replacement customer. This holds especially true if the venue is typically not at capacity. If the place has plenty of clientele then the owner might opt for the bigger spender crowd at the risk of loosing low spenders. After all it is a business.

I used to run a strict rotation, although my shows have grown in popularity enough that I have started filtering new singers in. The table that I set up for all of my gigs is generally a good indicator of rotation size, as it holds roughly 12-13 slips vertically. I place these first 12-13 slips on a first-come, first-serve basis, and then, if songs start to filter in halfway through that first rotation, they go in between the original cast of 12-13. So if I have a total of 15 singers that have entered slips at any point during the first rotation, the second rotation will go 1, 14, 2, 15, 3 and so on. It's been foolproof so far -- I only deviate when it becomes clear my night will be an insanely busy one, in which case I'll revert to the "line at Disneyland" method in some semblance of keeping my sanity and the general public at ease.

My own participation in my rotation will depend on the business of the night. Fortunately, I have a great relationship with most of my regulars, so I'm often comfortable singing once a rotation for at least the first half of the night -- I also get numerous requests (I get a lot of "stump the KJ" go-getters that want to see if I can pull off the Arcade Fire song they think I don't know, or if I can nail the high notes on their favorite Dio song), so I try to accommodate. If it's very busy, I'll participate in duets only, as many of my regulars often look forward to doing them. If it's very VERY busy, I'll tell the regulars that I'm sorry, but I'm not comfortable singing when there's such a long line, and we'll sing it next time, I promise. I love my regulars, and would do anything within reason for them, including singing that damned "Picture" for the 400th time.

As for duets, it's simple: you sing once per rotation. I'll bend on that when it's a slow night, sure, but if it's steady-to-busy, I will not. Mike cannot put in "Endless Love", sing it with Diane, and then Diane sing her own song in the same rotation. I don't care if "it was MIKE'S song, not mine!" -- I won't do it. My best friends, the bartenders, even my own WIFE all get the same treatment.

you hit it on the head, everyone gets treated the same and that is why you have grown in popularity (besides your vocal prowess and dashing good looks ). i run mine almost exactly the same way as you do.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

If I was working strictly for the bar in question, then I could see doing a rotation that favored bar patrons that spent, however, I am a contractor by a club - it's MY reputation at stake - not the bars. If I did a rotation that favored only spenders, I wouldn't have a rotation anymore.

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LIKE Lonman on Facebook - Lonman Productions Karaoke & my main site via my profile!

I also believe that it isn't my job to monitor spending. The proof is in the pudding -- either the show goes or it doesn't. The key is to have a fun vibe. People stick around when they are enjoying themselves. If you run everything only for the singer, then you'll only get singers.If you don't take care of the singers, you won't have a show. It is a hard line to walk -- lots of shows die with a large rotation and a low tape.

As a customer, I always eat something in addition to cokes. I also tip well, which helps compensate the employees. (Don't bother telling me that doesn't help the owner -- you are wrong if you say that.) I want to do that for good shows, because I want the show to go on. Bars with no food are hard for me, because I don't drink. Too many of them fail to charge for refills.

As far as rotation, I take singers for the first rotation until 45 minutes after the top of the hour. After that, eveyrone goes in the next rotation. People hate the ever-growing rotation. If you were there early, you should not have to wait indefinitely for your second song. This gives incentive to show up early. I also will start right on time no matter what -- I hate it when I show up on time and the host says "I'm going to wait until I get a few more singers". Why would anyone ever show up on time if they are going to have to wait?

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[color=#ffff55]Mickey J.[/color]
Alas for those who never sing, but die with all their music in them.
-- Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr.

I second that!

Also the bars that advertise Karaoke night and play as many as 3 fill tunes in a row even though there are 5 singers and no other patrons in the bar. Not always the KJ's fault. There are 2 venues here in town that force the KJ to play the fill.