Karaoke Forums

So we got the news today about Sound Choice,it wasn't the best news, but I was hopeful pending its 1st release.

But I realized something.... something BIG

Basically, unless you are a Licensed/Certified KJ you can't get the ADVANCED Sound Choice CD (At this time anyway)

So as far as I can tell, you need to factor in whatever your paying for licence fee as well...

Take for example, your a KJ with one rig. You have CDs that are media shifted so your paying the HELP Licence. You are paying monthly at the 6 month rate of $129/month

Now add in the $30 and you are looking at $159.... for ONE CD.... Maybe

Using Sound Choices Math... They need 320 sign ups for the 8 track CD to be released.

$159 for 8 songs = $20/song.... ouch.

Now I say maybe because they have only "About 105" sign ups. I'm assuming SOME of the orders are for 2 or more CDs, but lets say ALL of those orders are.... That puts us at about 210 copies, so even with double numbers it STILL has 110 sign ups to go... for 8 tracks! This number is much worse if they are counting actual numbers of sign ups as instances, leading us back to 105. They said in a post somewhere on here that just before the announcement, they had a 50% increase in orders, that doesn't look good either.

We still don't know what we are getting as far as tracks go. While that will change some come Oct 9th, its still not a guaranteed listing depending on rights.

We still won't know the quality. I would like to say it's going to be awesome, but it's been 6 years, the band might be a bit rusty.

Finally, business is about risk vs. reward. Using the Sound Choice math again 320 sign ups x $30 is about $10,000. Are you saying as a Business you can't lay out $7000 and just put the release out? That doesn't fill me with confidence that a CD will ever see the light of day.

I can deal with the last three points, but that license fee makes it horribly expensive for something that hasn't been delivered. If I paid that certification fee (or Audit, etc.) in the hopes of being part of the new Sound Choice movement, I've already put in $258, my $30 for the CD and... nothing to show for it.

As a host, I can tell you that people who sing karaoke are everyday people, not professionals. I don't expect my line of singers to be a night of Karaoke Idol, I expect it to be a lot of drunk people having a good time, taking selfies while mumbling everything but the chorus. If they are going to butcher a song, it doesn't matter if its a WAV file in HD surround sound with 4k graphics, its going to sound like karaoke night. The few people who DO appreciate it doesn't make it worth that money to me, specially if its not what they are going to sing anyway.

Sorry Sound Choice, unless you have a better option, I am going to have to pass. I do wish you all the best though.

TM

TM I would not throw in the towel just yet.

All PEP is really intested in is selling to those people who BUY their music.

If you have ANY physical soundchoice product, I would talk to Brian or even Jim about getting certified.

Not only would you be able to use the discs that you have already purchased on a computer, but you would secure the right to buy future music.

PEP is extremely reasonable to those people who are willing to try and work with them. I could not speak for them directly but they HAVE waived fees to those that are willing to submit to an audit, but it would be a true financial hardship to their business.

From my own personal experience Jim and Brian have worked their collective butts off to get me the GEM set that I have been wanting since it came out, but couldn't remotely afford at the normal financing options.

When I expressed my concerns about paying for shipping AND duty at the same time, they offered to send the discs out first and get my payment for shipping the following month. And then when I got slammed with a $163 bill from UPS, Brian went to bat for me and said I could wait until my next paycheck to pay for the shipping. *That added an additional 3 weeks to an already late payment*. How many companies do you deal with that are willing to ship product without either factoring shipping into the original price, or paying up front?

So my advice would be to TALK to them, see if there is anything they can do for your situation and then make up your mind what is the right decision for your business

If you have CDs for all your SC product, there is no need to apply for a HELP license. You can simply get certified. If the audit fee is a problem, contact Customer Care and we will work something out with you.

Jim,
From what I read (and understand), the certification and audit is only for use if you are using original CDs, and not digital media. From the lawsuit stuff I looked at, even a 1:1 shift for a KJ who legally owns the CDs was considered Trademark Infringement by you guys, and subject to lawsuit.

I was under the assumption that these new tracks are only going to be delivered as digital media, which to me means they in theory would fall under the HELP Licence Domain. (Computer + No Disks or Media Shifted Disks = Lawsuit). So how are these files exempt from the HELP (or other) Licence if they are delivered via digital means. I have read your might also allow them to be shifted BACK on to a CD as a BIN/WAV file.

I still DO have concerns about the numbers though, and the quality. I am serious when I say I'm concerned about what for a business of your size isnt looking at Advance Disk #1 as a loss to show your truly back in business. Also, might I suggest in addition to possibly making this tracks, you provide a 15-20 second sample so we can hear what it sound like?

Thanks for the reply. I really do wish you guys all the best, you made a great product in your prime. I just seriously believe its going to be a tough and long road for you. In all honesty, I did start reading these forums BECAUSE of what I've heard and seen about Sound Choice.

TM

I just love it when you purposely omit important information....

"simply get certified" isn't exactly free either because of the "audit fee" and you should not omit that this requires a contractual agreement.

So it's pretty simple;
(1) pay them extra for the audit fee and
(2) sign a contract slanted entirely in their favor and THEN
(3) toss $30 in the wind and see where it lands...

It's still more than $3.75 per song.... (if it happens at all)


Good luck.

Actually that is what the audit is supposed to be for - so you can use your original discs shifted on to the computer for use in your show without hassle.

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This isn't correct, and I'm sorry you've gotten the wrong impression.

If you use original Sound Choice CD+Gs, you don't need to be audited or certified. (In fact, with a little bit of verification that you are actually using original discs, you can even be listed on our certified list as an original disc user at no charge.)

If you have original Sound Choice CD+Gs, but you play from non-original media (hard drive, etc.), you need our permission for commercial use of the non-original media. That's where we do audit-and-certification, and we are looking for 1:1 correspondence. If you play commercially from non-original media without our permission, you could be sued--but you'll be given the opportunity shortly after the suit to get certified. Obviously our preference is for you to do it before being sued, and that will guarantee that you won't be sued.



The HELP license expressly excludes these new tracks. HELP only applies to "red logo" tracks--tracks that were originally released on CD+G discs before 2010 (there is technically one release from January 2010 that is included even though the agreement doesn't say it is) and that are distinguished by the front logo having a red musical staff. By comparison, the GEM series tracks have a blue musical staff and the words "Pro Series" on the front logo (although they have red logos elsewhere).

The new tracks will be delivered digitally--which is what almost everyone wants anyway--and they will carry their own permission for media-shifting to your production unit. Each track will have its own end user license. If you are an original disc user, we will allow you to convert the track to .bin and burn it to a CD so it can be played in a regular CD+G player.

In fact, we are not really concerned with format for the digital stuff at all, as long as a reasonable level of quality is maintained. We will probably release in MP4 format (hopefully H.264) with HD graphics. We are also looking at a native MP3+G option for those who would prefer that, so we can control the output quality, and if our licenses allow it, we will burn to a native CD+G for those who request it (small upcharge for additional materials and shipping).

One reason why we are less concerned about format-shifting is because (a) we're not distributing through third parties, so there is complete control over the product that's delivered to the consumer, and (b) we're implementing an onscreen positive-ID license code that will appear on every track (unobtrusively). That way, if we see a pirated copy in the wild, we will know exactly where it came from and we will know immediately if the user who has it is supposed to or not. (There are other passive security measures also.)



That's a fair question. One of the things we've asked for in our licensing is express authority to provide a sample prior to download. That only makes sense, of course, but believe it or not, some publishers have balked at that--not in the most recent round, but previously, several years ago.

The actual recordings for the new material are going to be made by the same people who made recordings for us years ago--same musicians, same studio engineers, same studio, even. The difference is that they aren't part of our enterprise anymore, but that's just semantics. If we couldn't produce the same quality we have been known for historically, or better, even, we wouldn't be doing this. The fact is that studio technology has improved greatly over the last few years, so I expect these new recordings to be some of the best we've ever made.

As for your other issue...could we put $10,000 into a new set of tracks? Sure. Could we make up the $7,000 difference and go ahead? Sure. But we want this to be a lasting thing. As I indicated, I have no interest in doing 8 tracks and going home. We can't make 8 tracks on spec without some indication that y'all will be willing to buy them. We've intentionally set our goals at the minimum break-even point and done everything we can to take your wants and needs into account. If we've learned anything over the last six years, it's that the demand for use of our products is there. Until recently, I'd never been to a show where there wasn't a single SC track played, and the one I saw a few weeks ago was a special circumstance. The question is, will people pay for them? Because if people aren't going to pay for new tracks, there's no reason to make them.



TM, I don't think anyone at Phoenix thinks the road will be anything but tough and long. We're very patient, though, and we plan to come out on top. I can say that everyone appreciates your comments, and we're working hard to pull this together. Thanks for your questions.

I've paid $3 for Karaoke Versions, and have paid $5/Song for the old Sound Choice Customs... It's not about the money (Well it is about the money, just not how you are talking about it)

I AM willing to pay if: 1) Its a good track 2) I don't get sued for owning it 3) It's not going to cost me $20/Song to own.

I will see what the tracks they are offering are come Friday. I would like updates on the numbers of sign ups. I want to hear tracks if possible. I am concerned about the poor business model of "Sue 1st, ask questions later" and how it affects future sales of their new line. If they can clarify my concerns, I will be on line with the rest of them. I do have issues with Sound Choice, but so long as my business is profitable, and makes me money, it can be worked out. As far as any contract is concerned, I haven't seen anything that says I need panic outright. They aren't forcing me to sign anything unless I want their product. We ALL sign contracts, we do this with things like smartphones, software, etc. (It's called Terms of agreement) most of us don't read that stuff and just sign it anyway. If for some weird reason I get sued before I deal with SC, then I'm sure I will work that out too, probably through a Lawyer. I'm also sure I won't be happy about it, but if the terms are fair and I feel both parties would be satisfied, I'd still do business with them.

Time will tell, and I'm too old for Kool-Aid and party Games. I'm not a major player with 500 gigs, I am a small fish, but I can say it's all I do for work. I'd rather be a KJ then about 1,000 other Jobs I can think of, so long as it's profitable. They day it isn't, I hang up the microphone and move on.

TM

And @ Jim

Thank you for your quick and helpful reply I do think you have shifted my position on the fence (maybe some others as well) closer to the yes column.

I am sorry if I come off a little harsh towards Sound Choice, I have been a fan for many years (Indeed, If you have your old forums on an old server someplace you might understand where handle Toastedmuffin comes from), but I need to cut through the BS and get a clearer prospective about what I might get into. You have definitely helped the cause.

Lets see what Friday has to offer

TM

I didn't say it was free. However, I did say that if the fee presents a problem we can work with you.



Audits cost money. We do generally charge for the cost of those audits, since they are conducted for the ultimate benefit of the KJ.

But I have to take issue with your contention that the contract is "slanted entirely in [our] favor." There are some aspects of it that are set up for our protection, sure. There are other aspects of it that are set up for the KJ's protection. For example, when you sign up and complete the questionnaire and disc list, you'll get an immediate provisional certification and a listing on our website. Otherwise, it's a pretty neutral document that simply describes what will happen. I'm guessing you haven't read the actual contract, though.



$30 / 8 = $3.75, so it's not "more than $3.75 per song." And if it doesn't happen, it's $0 per song. (Not that any actual or prospective customers have asked, but all of the money that's been collected to date has been set aside--we will not touch it unless and until we move forward with production.)

I can tell you that we will not have any samples available by Friday. Even if we had a fully subscribed release and a license in place, we'd still need 1-2 weeks of lead time to get into the studio. If I can make samples happen before the end of the reservations period, you'll be the first to know, but I just don't think there is enough time.

I hope you don't let the brusque tone I take with Mr. Staley to color your view of how I approach commentary on these forums. I'm here to make sure people have the best information possible so they can make decisions. Mr. Staley's approach is different. He doesn't like us, for reasons we don't need to get into, and so he takes a lot of steps to try to cause us damage. We understand that not everybody agrees with our approach to things, but we do try to be fair to people who want to cooperate rather than antagonize or take advantage.

So if we do the media shift, own the CDs and do the audit. It's just the initial audit fee, and then we are certificated, no HELP Licence required? And then STILL able to get the advance. That's do-able.



I don't think you would have them by Friday, you haven't made the list yet. I was thinking more in line when you release the tracks. KaraokeDownloads and Karaoke Versions both have a preview clip of the karaoke track as well as the graphics if you want to hear some of prior to purchase, so while it might be an issue on start up, I think you should be able to do that in the future.

TM

I have read the contract... all of it. And it is completely slanted in your favor. You are indemnified against anything and everything including "third party rights holders" - for things like "infringement." The KJ however is indemnified against nothing from any third party -- other than a suit for YOUR trademark... that you own and you control. So don't try to convince anyone that it's somehow "fair and equitable" to all parties involved - it's not.

If you think that "an immediate provisional certification and a listing on our website" actually means anything at all, it might as well be a child's sucker - it looks sugary sweet, but it is absolutely meaningless and devoid of substance.

"There are other aspects of it that are set up for the KJ's protection." And I say you're not speaking honestly to your own customers because the KJ has no recourse in any of the contractual agreements you have them sign. Period.

You have repeatedly in the past stated that you will not and can not "guarantee" that a KJ would not get sued in a club.... even if by mistake. So there is no guarantee at all because being "named in a lawsuit" is actually called "being sued."

What is truly telling is that while you claim in "only needs 320" to sign up for 8 songs, you obviously have at least that many that "are eligible" and less than a third had done anything at all. Not to mention that by your own admission "more than 50% signed up in the last 48 hours" meaning what? 60? 65? Pretty sad.

You can now see what 6 years of continuously poisoning your own well has done for your big announcement of "getting the band back together."

And this is a perfect example of that poisoning posted just today:

I can see why you would resent our taking a hard line against pirates, but our position on that point isn't going to change.

We make no apologies for proceeding against people who refuse to follow the rules, nor for restricting the ADVANCE program to those who do follow the rules. Why should we let people have new stuff when they steal the old stuff?

Praise the Lord! I am so happy to hear that.

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Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

And why exactly is that? Insinuating with no evidence of anything.... again? Don't whine to me about "casting aspirations" on you and "sheer hatred" when you turn around and pull this kind of garbage.

I believe the problem for most of your customers who "follow the rules" is figuring out which rules you've decided to institute or change this week. You have plenty of trouble mustering up enough people who want "more of your ever-changing rules" anyway. It's looking like your loyal contracted-customers are voting with their wallets.

I haven't seen you pin on your superhero cape and swoop into the 4 corners area to protect a customer who has purchased all your discs, and you've sued his venues - costing him so far, 2 weekly gigs out of 4. You didn't talk to him, you did nothing but sue his venues and apparently the only "rule he violated" was purchasing your product. I don't see you charging him $500 for a quick audit and dropping the suit.... like you've done to other "technical infringers." What seems to be the problem here?

You can try to distract people like Toastedmuffin how wonderful, helpful and accommodating you can be while in the background it's business as usual; you're suing the snot out of the venues of someone else that you've never even spoken to about your "rules."

Maybe no one will notice.

it is being noticed Chip, but you really have to stop being such a dick to anyone not on your side. even Jim who take the brunt of it all is more polite than you are to most people.
i agree with you on a lot of things (not all by far, but a lot) but your delivery sucks and that loses you a lot of audience.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Please note... these comments (by me) were made prior to my reading of any new announcements that SC/PEP may have made.

Here's what I see as the rub to that. SC/PEP is expecting people to jump on the bandwagon and pre-pay for this new disc blindly, with no indication as to what songs might be produced. In contrast, KSF has been actively asking us for song requests, and they have currently acknowledged our suggestions. They have told us there will be no guarantees as to what will be produced by them (or when), but we at least know that it's coming from our very own requests. Now, has SC/PEP done that, or are they planning to produce a disc (assuming your minimum quota of 320 orders is met) with song titles that they believe are what we want?


Well, I am one of those people who pre-paid for this disc. I'm willing to take a gamble (this time) that I will like what I get for the price. If I don't like the selection, then I probably won't be willing to invest in any more future discs... at least not without knowing what's on it first. BUT... there are many KJs that don't feel that way. They are not willing to gamble blindly on something that they have no clue what will be on it. They feel that SC/PEP should take the gamble on us (not the other way around), and produce the disc without a pre-sale on it. If people like the titles on that disc, then they'll (more than likely) purchase it. If not enough sales are made, then SC/PEP has its answer.

I fail to see the relevance in your continued rantings between you and Jim Harrington. It's very apparent by now that you hate all things Sound Choice. My suggestion therefore is: Do not use or play any SC material. Do not purchase another SC track, ever. Do not support SC in any way. Do not read and reply to any thread/post where Sound Choice is the topic of discussion.

You probably do most of that already accept for the last one.

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Electro-Voice Evolve 50... Taking Sound To The Next Level.

I believe you fail to "see the relevance" by ignoring and skipping entirely the first 2 sentences of what you've quoted above, and how that is relevant to what attorney Harrington has posted.

Besides, attorney Harrington constantly deflects, misleads and omits key information that prevents the average (or new) reader from seeing or understanding all the facts of most situations and therefore is unable to make an educated decision.

His baseless insinuation above is a perfect example.