Karaoke Forums

You mean like a pickpocket? I've always been taught that if you make a promise, you stick by it. If you sign a contract, you uphold the terms of that contract. Money kept in a breach of their own original contract without any goods or services being rendered... is simply theft and not "just business."

I don't believe I've ever asked anyone to blindly "believe me" have I?

Nope. Not even you.

Unless I get a share in the company I am funding, they can fund themselves. Sorry, but I won't help a company rebuild when they won't do anything for their customers, besides leach money from them.

Chip IS right about one thing, SC HAS poisoned the industry and put a blight on it. They have soured the Karaoke experience for many bar owners, and have forced many KJs to drop the brand, either out of fear, or out of a ban from bar owners. It has been documented RIGHT here of this forum that many bar owners have told KJs not to use SC. I guess now they will tell them to stop using Chartbuster.

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

And if you took a poll, I would bet very few hosts have pulled SC. On this board alone there seem to be two, Chip and Smoothedge. I don't believe anyone else here has.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

I was wondering where you went.... I've missed your non-contributory drive-bys...

I'm just wondering however, how many "certified" hosts won't use that as a marketing point because it's detrimental to their marketing efforts? I know that Paradigm has been shown the door and had guns pointed at him for mentioning it.

I'd put that in the "pretty serious poisoning" category.

But I can also tell you that so far, 100% of the KJ's that don't use the brand have not had themselves or their venues sued because of it.

The "poison" comes from owners wanting to operate as simply as possible and from them resenting all of the hoops they have to jump through instead. It should be a simple and accepted concept to hire people who are operating legally but owners don't want to know. Yet if an illegal bar opened up next door to them you can bet they would be calling the authorities. The poison is that the bar wants to hire a pirate and doesn't want anyone telling them otherwise.

I would only agree... to a point.

Many of the venues being sued don't knowingly hire people that are operating illegally. They don't care, it's not their business. Their business is selling booze and food. Why would they be interested is the source of any vendors "tools or supplies?" Do you make it a point to see that the beer they sell actually came from Anheiser Busch and that they can legally sell it? Nope. Do you make sure that the oil change place uses real "Valvoline Brand" oil and not Mobil Oil or do you trust that what they do and advertise is legal?

Should a venue owner demand to see the receipts with matching serial numbers from all the band members that they purchased the instruments and amplifiers they use just to make sure that stolen equipment isn't used in his nightclub? Most bar owners want "cheap" and that's it.

I don't believe that it's the venue's responsibility to demand receipts, check discs or do "advance discovery" for PEP under a threat of a lawsuit. --- That's the poison because if I were the bar owner, I'd just dump karaoke altogether and bring in Guitar Hero, WII bowling, trivia or anything else that's either the same price or less. And I'd also warn all the other bar owners I knew of the same crap. Bar owners talk to other bar owners... just ask one. Paradigm has found that out in the worst ways possible being run out and almost tarred and feathered and the guy in the quad cities has already lost 2 of his 4 gigs because of it.

It appears as though PEP just wants a quick, "here's some money, now go away" kind of settlement from the venue. They don't care if the venue fires the KJ or drops karaoke altogether... as long as they get a chunk of change on their way out the door.

In a standard auto accident related lawsuit where the plaintiff really isn't hurt and any medical has been paid and autos fixed and replaced but some ambulance-chasing attorney sees a dollar and they sue anyway for "pain and suffering," the cost to an insurance company to defend a lawsuit like that is about $16,000 to go to trial. So the insurance company will offer $10,000 to make it "go away." And I believe this is exactly what PEP is counting on when they (now) sue venues first.... take their $10,000 and be on their merry way to the next easy mark (venue). You'll notice that even Harrington has confirmed that Slep-Tone's insurance company paid the $375,000 judgment against them from CAVS and again from the latest lawsuit from EMI.

If PEP can get $10,000 every time they toss a poison pill in the well, you can bet they'd be backing up truckload after truckload of pills.... The "karaoke industry" and the "legal KJ" wouldn't mean squat because it's far more profitable to sue the venues -- who have insurance -- than it is to chase a bunch of $100/night pirates. They need the pirates... it gives them venues to sue.

Well, that's a good thing, because you aren't getting it.



As hard as it might be for you to understand, we're not changing any rules. We are offering those who bought in with us the option: Get a refund like we agreed, or you can leave your money with us in exchange for something that has value--and if you change your mind, you can *still* get a refund like we agreed.



We are 100% willing to refund all customers. Every customer will be given the option of a "no questions asked" refund, or 12 credits against future production (which, by the way, is the maximum they would have gotten if we'd had 480 sign up). It's their choice. The fact that you consider that somehow to be a breach of a contract to which you are not a party is somehow both surprising and not surprising.



You seem to be confused that the modification we're proposing will somehow not include a writing signed by both parties.

Which is exactly why I decided to disprove your claim about the watermarking.

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-Chris

And you don't believe Chip has soured KJ's in general on hosting? That his FUD isn't part of the reason why some KJ's may have dropped the brand?

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-Chris

Actually, we'll be posting information on our website about what we're doing, so you'll know exactly what we're doing.



Here's how it will work. On Monday or Tuesday--depends on when we can get everything set up--everyone who signed up will get an email explaining the situation, with a link to a page on our website (with authentication) where they will make a choice: refund or "let it ride." If they hit the refund button, they'll get a refund to the card they used for the payment. If for some reason we can't refund it to their card, they'll have a check cut and mailed to them.

If they hit the "let it ride" button, they'll get a series of alphanumeric codes (which are stored in their pep.rocks account) that can be used once we have new production. If at any point before we announce that the option is locking, they choose a refund, their codes are canceled and they get a refund, same as above.

If they don't make a choice by a certain deadline--probably 14 days, but maybe longer--then we'll just issue the refund.

Just so we're clear: If they take no action in response to our notice, they'll automatically be issued a refund.



We consider jclayton to be a professional karaoke operator.



Re crowdfunding premiums: Professional operators will have the option of choosing credits that they can redeem to license tracks we produce. Those who don't meet our eligibility requirements to license the tracks may have the option to receive a lower-quality "home version," such as a version in MP3+G format at 192 kbps (as opposed to a 320 kbps MP3+G or a high-definition H.264/MP4), watermarked for home use only, or a straight MP3 (no graphics). I must stress that we have not made a decision on this point, and we may not offer that sort of premium to the general public.

From you, I consider that a compliment. It means something is hitting a little too close to home is it?

Except now, they have to tell you they want it? Where is that in your contract? I guess "prompt refund" really means "tell us you want it back." If you had an ounce of integrity, you'd mail them a check... per the terms of your own contract with a letter explaining your "new program" and all they'd have to do is mail your check back to you... but that would mean risking the chance that they just might cash the check and use it to buy.... wait for it..... karaoke music from someone who is actually producing something they can use... today.


Is there something not clear in your OWN contract?

Then do it and do it "promptly." That's exactly what YOUR CONTRACT says you will do. It's doesn't say "we'll be willing to refund you..." does it? What ever happened to "Words mean things?" Amazing that it gets tossed right out the window when your holding their money and suddenly your own contract doesn't mean what it says. This is why attorneys have the stinky reputations they do... no matter which law school they attended.

Show me where it says that in the legally binding contract you authored and collected money for.... I'll wait. I don't care about your "new offer" to keep their money, it's not part of the agreement they signed and you know it.



I am not confused at all that you'd come up with some scheme to delay the "prompt refund" in your own contract and try to keep their money..... that kind of tactic is called "bait and switch."

And I'm not at all confused or surprised.

Covering your ears and screaming "LA LA LA" isn't going to change the fact that what we are doing is fully within the terms of the contract. We're not putting anyone under any pressure not to take the refund. You yourself indicated that you thought "within 30 days" qualifies as a prompt refund, and I've already said that people who don't make the choice within around 14 days will get their refund automatically.



The contract means exactly what it says, and we are doing exactly what it says. We're saying, "Hey, you're entitled to a refund, go here and request it, or you can pick this new option if you prefer. If you don't decide by X date, we'll send you your refund." Everybody who wants a refund, gets a refund. People who would rather take the credits, get the credits. Everybody who doesn't choose promptly gets the refund.

Let's say you bought a ticket to a baseball game, but on the day of the game, it rained. The baseball club says, "Since we didn't get to play the game, we owe you a refund. We feel really bad that we didn't get to play the game. But there will be other games in the future, and if you'll forego a refund, we'll give you a ticket to any future game of your choice, plus a $10 credit to spend at the concession stand. Which would you like?" Then some guy who didn't buy a ticket and doesn't even like baseball starts screaming "NO YOU HAVE TO REFUND EVERYBODY AND IF YOU DON'T IT'S A BREACH OF CONTRACT WHARRRRRGARBLLLLL!"

That's what you sound like right now.

As an outsider looking in karaoke appears to be a very hostile business. Clearly occupied by many who should probably do something else.

It's a business with a moderately low capitalized cost of entry(less than 50k) and a very low return for all but the best. No wonder there are far more pirates in the marketplace.

Anyone who's 'legit' should be behind actions to remove pirates in my opinion .. YMMV.

I posted this almost 3 years ago after being on these forums for only 3 weeks............holds true today.....

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=22776&hilit=hostile

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-Chris

Where? I haven't seen that anywhere in the original agreement.

And the story changes once again.... Re-writing history are you? Show me in your contract where it puts the responsibility of requesting a "prompt refund" on the other party? It's not there at all.

That's called "bait and switch." You don't have any "future production dates" at all. Nothing, nada, zip, zilch.

Here's what your offer -- using your example above -- really means:


That is called "bait and switch" and you know it.

If you were not concerned about their loyalty to your brand, you wouldn't be so hot to keep their money now because you would know that they would support your project in the future... But I guess you're a little concerned that they'd jump ship on you... That's not much confidence in your own (unmade) product. Particularly since you have absolutely no future date when they would receive any kind of product if they agreed.
"A while" could be "a very loooong while."

I'd worry about that too if I were you. Especially if I was suing venues.

@Jim Harrington...

Believe it or not, I think what you are doing in regards to the Advance program is fair by the people who tried to fund your project. You are giving them an option on what they can do. I do believe you will give refunds as needed, for those people who don't want their money tied up.

You say you will give them some benefit for letting it ride, and that's cool by me. They do deserve something for waiting this long, maybe more then what you are offering. Throw them a Tshirt or something for the wait.

Also, no disrespect to jclayton, as I said, I don't know the rules about what it takes to be considered professional. If you stand behind him, who am I to judge him?

I don't know or want to know what the deal is between you and Chip. Not my circus, not my monkeys. Sometimes the back and forth requires popcorn...

I might not like everything you do over there, but I'm not your enemy, And i dont want you to fail. Get it right and you'll get my cash, and probably a lot of other people's cash on this board as well.

Jim, that is a reasonable way to do it (i especially like the auto refund for no action, that's classy) so good on you for that. i do disagree with the liberal interpretation of professional in regards to the GEM though. showing proof if shows was part of the process to get them, changing mid stream...i don't know about that.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Chris, I have dropped the brand, not because of Chip, but because I don't want to use discs anymore, and I don't want any BS from SC if they ever send an inspector to any of my shows.

My SC discs are 11 years old. I only have one that is relatively new. I have replaced many of the songs I used to sing off those discs with what I feel are better versions. If SC EVER starts producing again, and IF they offer downloads, AND if the quality is BETTER than it used to be, I will go back to them, and buy their product, like I do with everyone else.

BUT, I STILL do not like, nor approve of the way SC treats KJs. NO OTHER KARAOKE COMPANY is suing KJ's at this point!! Not ONE!! Not one other MUSIC entity is suing KJs OR DJs. ONLY SC. Sorry, I do not respect SC for that reason!!

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

I see Chip is working hard to get this thread locked too.

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You can be strange but not a stranger

Well I don't know if I deserve to be called a professional or not, but here are my views on things,

Back in the days when I was exclusively a singer and that's it, I used to download all my music for free. I thought that the fact that a karaoke disc could be as much as $40 Canadian was a complete ripoff and that it was sheer greed on the karaoke producer 's part. I was sort of like 'screw them they don't deserve my money'.

Then when I wanted to do this for a living and tried to do my due diligence in research I had a complete turnaround in my thinking. I had NO clue how much time, effort and money that was involved in producing 1 15 song disk. In the beginning I was writing every single producer I could to get permission to shift what discs I had. That's when I learned that dreaded word in our industry "sync rights'.

So I decided that if I was going to do this, I was going to do it properly and follow the rules to the best of my ability. I borrowed money for some basic equipment and I got 6 of the essential sets from charbuster. Since that day I have paid for every single disc and karaoke track I have ever used. There is one disc that I paid for and turned out to be fake but I will not delete it from my drive until I complete my audit from pep.

Fast forward a few years.. I had been forced to quit because of financial hardship but I still continued to follow the basic rule - pay for your music. So when the certification program first came out I wanted desperately to sign up but just couldn't justify the money with no gigs to pay for it. Then the program closed. Then they said they would reopen it temporarily. I didn't want to miss my chance to lease future music so I signed up two days after the announcement.

so am I a professional in the traditional sense? Probably not but I think Jim & Kurt realized that I was doing everything I could to become one and cut me a break cause I was following the rules and I personally believe that they would do the same for anyone in my position that was following their rules. So it's not like they are selling to every tom dick and Harry who has $5000 to spend on a karaoke product.

-James