Karaoke Forums

I'm not sure what you mean by "spotters." We don't rely on "spotters" to initiate suits, although we certainly receive—and act on, where possible—tips from people who suspect piracy.

We have not conducted investigations in Colorado in the last 7 years we've been doing this. It's possible that APS did some investigations in Colorado, but I'm not privy to those details.

I don't have the details. I think in this particular case we're just supplying the computing, the music, and the KJ because the venue has a high-end sound system. I'm not a sound guy, so I couldn't tell you anything about what we're spec'ing out.

Except in Detroit. Only Cheddar Bob knows what's up in the 3-1-3.

I stated it before in this thread. PRIME ULTIMATE is just another way to pass dispensation to a pirate.

There is no locale that is going to embrace legality until forced. Be it either a Venue or Hosts (KJs).
So now, when PEP names entities in a suit those named will be held as pirates until they submit to audit, then License GEMs to escape litigation AND due to PRIME ULTIMATE's 10% discount for the GEMs, they will also enjoin that and get to keep their gigs with the venue who was forewarned by Certified mail that they are now in compliance. That does not benefit PEPs loyal customers. Furthermore those same ex-pirates are now considered as foremost hosts for Corporate gigs via PEP who gains monies from securing the gigs.

No words can deny that will happen. That infuriates me that PEP has now entered into our market with this in mind.

KJs, life is about to change and this is only the beginning. Mr Harrington did not deny the use of Jukes, either.

_________________
You can never argue with a crazy mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mind ----B. Joel
I have great faith in fools; My friends call it self-confidence ---- E.A. Poe
I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity ----E.A. Poe
I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! ----A. Einstein
Double bubble, toil and trouble ----W. Shakespeare & Walt Disney
I hate it when I get on FaceBook ----Me
Karaoke might be Groundhog Day ----?
Of All the Martial Arts, Karaoke Inflicts the Most Pain ----?

I would like to know what changes you think are going to actually have an impact on GOOD KJ's?

KJ's have weathered a LOT of change in the past 25 years. The worst and longest of which is the budget pirate KJ's. 15+ years down the line......here we are.....still.

_________________
-Chris

There is no such thing as PRIME ULTIMATE. Do you mean PRIME PLATINUM?



Agreed.



This doesn't describe our process at all. Here is our current process:

(1) We do preliminary investigations to identify possible pirates.
(2) We send notifications to venues that they have an obligation to prevent piracy of our materials on their premises, inviting them to sign up for Safe Harbor (which they almost never do).
(3) After venues have been notified, we do follow-up investigations at each venue where the target KJ is operating.
(4) If the KJ is still infringing our rights, we sue the KJ and any venues where that occurs.
(5) We offer the KJ the limited opportunity to do an audit and get certified (which they almost never do).
(6) Barring that, we proceed with the suit and/or settle out with the defendants. Settlements require two pieces: Remedying past infringement (monetary payment) and a plan for moving forward (which might be a GEM series, a HELP license, or no SC at all, or even out of business).

If a KJ submits to and passes an audit, that's it--and that's as it should be. They don't have to license the GEM series.

If the KJ doesn't submit to an audit, or doesn't pass, then they will need to satisfy both prongs of the settlement--payment for past infringement, and a plan for moving forward. Once that's done, we consider them "all square" and they can certainly keep their gigs (if they can). But it's also important to remember that the venue must also get square with us.

PRIME does not factor into this at all because any KJ who's a defendant in our suit is NOT ELIGIBLE for the program.



That's not right, for reasons described above, but why do you care? You've already told me we can't hire you.



I guess that's decided, then.



Except we haven't entered with that in mind at all.



We would be foolish to refuse to look at any opportunity, including jukeboxes. That doesn't mean we would necessarily go into that business. We happen to think that karaoke works best with an experienced, charismatic host, and that's an opinion formed from seeing thousands of karaoke shows over the years.

But you're right: Change is inevitable, but not all change is bad. We're working hard to create good opportunities for experienced professional KJs, and yes, we're doing it for the money. So are you. So is Chris. So is Cheddar Bob.

Chris, don't lump everything into the Piracy category.
There... I corrected it for you (in RED). I know of many KJs (still) who are legit (maybe not in SC/PEP's eyes), who also UNDERCUT every chance they get.

Now that more than three years have passed, they can join Phoenix Prime and get their equipment back at a discount if it's not in use.

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KNOW THYSELF

Seriously? Not 'Comfortable with'?!?! Get the Whaaambulance, PEP isn't guaranteed a profit!!!

PEP dosen't want to make a song without a return, but you are willing to sink goodness knows how much on setting up rigs and heading into unknown markets?!?!? 500 of them within 'in a couple of years ?!?!?!

Currently you have less then 400 registered KJs... PEP couldn't get enough people to pay $30 to jumpstart the ADVANCED series... now you want some 10x as much to be a PRIME member....

Maybe you should sell whatever drugs your are using over there, they are some good stuff!!!

Really been almost 2 months since I posted this and it is still going strong.

viewtopic.php?f=26&t=33252#p409527

_________________
I like everyone when I first meet them. If you don't like me that's not my problem it's YOURS!
A stranger is a friend you haven't met yet

Jim, i think you are missing the REASON for the anger or at least hurt feelings and knee jerk reactions.
for years SC has been asking for our help in helping get your business back running by reporting pirates and buying music.
for as many years pirates were reported, and nothing ever done. there is not one person here that had a report followed up on and a majority of your fiercest supporters are right here.
for as many years there has been no music to buy.
so asking for help is fine, asking us to stand behind you and support your company is fine.
but now that same company that wanted us to vehemently do the leg work for SC has now said "we are now coming in to your area and be your competition"
we have been helping you....and our payment is not the pirates sued as we were promised, it is not the new music we were promised multiple times, it is having the company we have been helping become a new competitor taking shows in our area.
you being in business for money...duh...that's what a business is (not sure why Chip misses that point), having new avenues of revenue, not a big deal either (many of us have more than just karaoke), but going in as direct competition with your customers that you have continuously asked for help from is a different story. and many (as you have seen written) do not trust anymore because of the past. to believe that someone paying a yearly membership fee will not get preferential treatment over JUST a certified host or GEM licensee is a tough pill to swallow especially because you said so in as many words "Participation in our national booking program is limited to Phoenix PRIME PLATINUM members who undergo a screening process to evaluate their equipment, skills, and professionalism, and who become approved providers. Our standards are high, and approval is not guaranteed, but applicants who are not approved will be offered the opportunity to downgrade their membership to the Phoenix PRIME level and receive the lower pricing. ".
that, i believe, is the push back you are getting.

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Paradigm Karaoke, The New Standard.......Shift Happens

Wouldn't it have been more truthful if you had said; "We're getting the band back together... but we want YOU to front the money so if we make a crappy product and no one buys it, we won't lose our money."

So you finally admit that you didn't "need" a single dime of "advance money" to make any songs at all, you just wanted it to guarantee your costs if you made a bunch of crap that wouldn't sell. Which is pretty much what you proposed when you "claimed" you were planning on putting out "songs no one else has done" and your useless list had every single song already put out by other manufacturers....

Sure, I'd love for everyone else to finance a turd factory for me too, it would be less for me to spend and if no one actually buys any of the finely-finished and hand-polished turds, I still haven't lost anything -- they did.

Nice way to "work your market" by treating them like they're idiots.
And it's even better that you confirmed it yourself.

And the punishment for them not forking over the cash is more lawsuits and now competition from you? You seriously believe that you are competition? You can't possibly compete without using a lawsuit for leverage. You have ZERO experience in the KJ end of this business. Unless you use the "Bob Latshaw School of No Experience" which means that all you have to do is watch a "real KJ" a handful of times and then tell all the other KJ's that you know what's best for them.

Did someone drop a house on your sister?

Now that is really FUNNY !!!

_________________
You can never argue with a crazy mi-mi-mi-mi-mi-mind ----B. Joel
I have great faith in fools; My friends call it self-confidence ---- E.A. Poe
I became insane, with long intervals of horrible sanity ----E.A. Poe
I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! ----A. Einstein
Double bubble, toil and trouble ----W. Shakespeare & Walt Disney
I hate it when I get on FaceBook ----Me
Karaoke might be Groundhog Day ----?
Of All the Martial Arts, Karaoke Inflicts the Most Pain ----?

Jim, I think you will find that the MAJORITY of people that post here, daily, are not interested in your new scheme. They aren't interested in excuses about risk, or crying about money. They are interested in music. They WANT, NEED, and CRAVE new music, from "America's Favorite Karaoke Brand" All ANYONE is seeing from you is self interest. You WERE a Karaoke song MFR. Then you became a litigation company, not you are trying to become an entertainment company. People just want you to make music.

DTE, Party Time, and All Star are doing fine making music. They, obviously, have the licensing, and they are making money. They aren't trying to take over the Karaoke industry by loading it with their own hosts, they aren't trying to compete with the people that bought music from them. You are going to hurt this industry even further by knocking out little guys that do this for supplemental income. I know a few in my area, ( I know, it is unlikely that you will enter my area) , that supplement their Social Security by running Karaoke shows. I am sure there are guys like that all over the country. I support my kid, doing this for a living. You keep talking about "professional KJs". Well, this is what I do to make money. I don't use SC, so in YOUR eyes I am not a professional?? So I should be stomped out, like a bug.

You talk about the risk involved in making new music. If you made relevant songs, (not just re-made what has already been made), released them in a timely manner, at a reasonable price, at the quality point that we all know and love, (not that newer, over-compressed crap that you made in later years), you would make a killing in no time. I am up to 5-6 shows a week. I average 20 song purchases a week. I buy, mostly from Karaoke Version now. If your quality were better than theirs, I would switch in a heartbeat. So would MOST of those on this site!! Open your EYES, and consider everything that has been said here!! We JUST want the damn music back!!

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I am the ONLY SANE 1 HERE

We are very thankful to our many supporters who have helped us stay in business.

However, this statement—"for as many years pirates were reported, and nothing ever done"—is simply not true. We have sued literally thousands of pirates. I think that many people have a romanticized view of litigation. To put together a lawsuit takes many hours: investigative time, both in the field and in public databases and social media, including (usually) multiple site visits; attorney time to review the information gathered and to draw up the factual allegations, making sure that each one has evidentiary support; time for our non-attorney staff to document and organize all the information we have; then on top of that, we have to file the lawsuit, arrange for service of the complaint, summons, and settlement information on defendants (which often takes multiple attempts). It is a genuinely massive undertaking, but you don't see any of it because we do all of this behind the scenes.

Then we have to deal with defendants who browse the internet for debunked theories why they shouldn't be held liable, and file motion after motion, each one of which has to be responded to carefully. Then we have to deal with judges who are, by definition, generalists in the field of law; that means carefully explaining the law in our arguments, and dealing with a wide spectrum of views of judges, many of whom have a very superficial understanding of technology.

I say all of this not to complain--that is what litigation takes--but only to tell you that this takes a huge commitment of resources, which means we have to make choices about what to pursue. And we've done this thousands of times over the last 7 years. For you to say that we've done nothing, just because the results in your specific area aren't what you wanted, is simply wrong.



Also not true. There is plenty of music to buy. What you mean is that there is no NEW music to buy and that's true. But the reason why there is no NEW music to buy is because there aren't enough people who are willing to buy it, under normal sale conditions, to make it profitable without also causing us huge headaches in enforcement.



I very specifically did not say that. Consider this: We look on the great body of mobile entertainment operators in this country, more than 30,000 of you. We see that a small fraction of those operators are our licensees. Most of the rest are pirates, using counterfeits of our materials to compete against our licensees. Obviously litigation alone isn't solving that problem. But we can approach this problem in a different way, as a parallel track to our litigation program, by actively marketing approved services to venues, and in the process get more work and more money into the hands of our licensees by hiring them. Meanwhile, we can add some economies of scale to the operations, like centralized sales, technical support, and marketing services, that help make our licensees' activities more profitable.

I get that people don't yet understand our vision on this. But for some folks, it's willful blindness.



That was a very inartfully worded expression of how this is intended to work, so I've arranged to change that wording on the website.

Let me be clear:

The PRIME program (including both membership levels) is intended to help karaoke operators who are our licensees to acquire the tools of the trade more easily: Discounts on music, discounts on equipment, free and low-cost training, marketing services, promotional materials. There is a cost, yes, but that cost is designed to create an incentive for members to do things that enhance participation in our vision for the future: becoming better at the work they do, acquiring better equipment, and promoting themselves as tied in to a large national operation. It's not about the money. Do you think the $99 cost for Amazon Prime is a profit center for Amazon? Of course not. Giving away free 2-day shipping and the many other benefits people get for joining costs Amazon far more than $99 per member. But they remove a barrier to sales, an advantage that brick-and-mortar competitors like Wal-Mart have over them, which is that you can get what you want today with no shipping charge.

In the same way, we're offering discounts that are worth a lot more than the cost of the programs—to some KJs. If you don't need the discounts and services we're offering, that's fine. Please don't sign up. I don't want you to be a member if it's not worth it to you.

But we think there are some folks out there who could use what we're offering. We want to encourage people to participate in our vision for the future. When somebody joins PRIME PLATINUM, they're saying, "Yeah, I want to be a part of what you're doing. Give me the discounts and the services, and if you can help me get some work to do, I'm ready." So when our sales team is deciding where to concentrate on, naturally, the areas where we have PRIME PLATINUM members are going to get attention, because we know we have people who are ready to work for us.

Even if you don't sign up, though, if I have an opportunity to fill a gig in your area, and you're otherwise in good standing with us, I'm still going to give you a call. We're not trying to compete with you. We're trying to work with you to compete against the pirates in your area.

And I'm sure the 11 people it takes to make a MAJORITY of people that post here daily will be happy to buy music when it comes out. So there's $33 in revenue against $1000 expenses, per track. Maybe.

We will be grateful for the $33 when it happens. But by itself, that's not enough, and right now, we're not seeing how it will be enough.



I don't think anyone disputes that you're a professional. I certainly don't dispute it. And I am not interested in stomping you out. I don't know how many times I need to say that to make it sink in. We are not interested in putting you out of business.

We are interested in putting pirates out of business. The guys in your area that supplement their Social Security with karaoke—do they do it with the use of pirated material? If so, yeah, I've got a problem with that. Each one individually might not be a problem, but together, they make a huge impact. Every show they do with pirated material is a show that isn't getting done by somebody who paid for the material they use. They are taking money out of Phoenix's pocket and your pocket. I'm not OK with that. They are the ones hurting the industry, by making it difficult if not impossible for us to get paid for our music (which means music doesn't get made), and by making it difficult if not impossible for legit, professional KJs to make a reasonable, living wage for their work.

With all the expenses and expertise that goes into being a professional karaoke host, I don't think that $75 is a fair price for a four-hour karaoke show. That's $15/hour gross, and from that you've got to pay for your music, your equipment, your travel time, your transportation costs, your storage costs, and your taxes (if those get paid at all). But it's not just that. At $75, he's also competing for your singers and taking money away from your venues, which contributes to saturation of the marketplace.

Look, I get the sympathy for an old guy who's just looking for a little cash to help pay the bills, and I'm not unsympathetic, but I do resent it when he's pulling that cash almost directly out of my pocket and yours.



I know you want to believe that's true, but the facts just don't bear it out.

DTE had major investors dump money into them so they could build an infrastructure and platform to do what the do now. Joe Vangieri is on record as saying they only receive 25% of their revenue from karaoke as well.

Party Time is owned by a foreign company now. One that already had infrastructure in place to create and distribute discs. They are arguably better funded (as far as I can tell) than PEP.

All Star hasn't released anything new in new in months. It might even be a year now. I would not count them as a player at all.

_________________
-Chris

You've caused more harm then any pirate has in our neck of the woods.

As for the Amazon comparison... your not even a large company to them, must less a comparison. Don't pretend that PEP Prime is anything NEAR what Amazon Prime is or offers.

A completely untestable assertion, since "our neck of the woods" could be anywhere.



Now you're just being obtuse. You know I wasn't suggesting that we are somehow comparable to Amazon in the way you're talking about.

I think I've spelled it out pretty clearly, and last time a DID say something more defining, they closed out the thread, why do that? You are smart enough to read between the lines I believe.



I'm obtuse? I didnt bring them up for comarison... you did:



Any currently how many tracks are available is one was to buy this service today? Is the "Training material" ready, what about those "National bookings"?

You don't have a product, you have a promise. But many people here don't believe what PEP has to promise, and since one of PEPs promises is 50 karaoke tracks, you actually need to, and I know this is hard to grasp, release karaoke tracks which means that you might actually have to take a loss to fufill a major part of your service (which by your statements, PEP is reluctant to do. Tracks that some people have been waiting for since they signed on with ADVANCED.... That was supposed to be what 10-15 tracks with the right numbers?

So Someone buys into the PRIME, they give you this money... they get 18 months for 15... when will they see the rewards and value of this program? It's not listed on the site... and I guess someone interested would want to know that before spending that money.

At least with Amazon, they get access to product that day.