Karaoke Forums

Yes,  I'd be happy to BadSinger. I was actually pleasantly surprised about 3/4 of a year back when you submitted a Rod Stewart song... You claimed you had a cold at the time, yet it sounded quite good... Not sure if the song was "you're in my heart" or a different song, yet I thought it was a great choice for you IMHO.  I immediately felt that Brian Adams, and Rod Stewart were good selections for you, given what I heard on that one occassion.  I'll be looking out for your song, and however you wish for me to critique the particular song, I will.



You mentioned this a few weeks back, and I went to listen to your more recent song in Singer's Showcase.. and although I noticed some of what you mention, I wondered what conditions, and settings you submit these songs under. Here's an example... How familiar are you with the song's you are submitting ?  are these song's you've heard numerous times ?  or are these song's you've heard a few times, yet aren't overly familiar with the phrasing, and rhythmic structures ? Do you sing with headphones on ? Another thing I wondered, (and CCindy would be able to help you with this since it's an area I know VERY little about, if anything at all)... Is English your primary language ? or is some of the possible difficulty you assume you are having with singing and phrasing "tempo", possibly an aspect of diction ? or natural difficulties a person will have with formations of words, phrases, and natural hesitation a person might have due to the difficulties of not just having to learn a song, phrasing, and melodic structure, but also possible apprehension, or slight insecurity due to the fact that a person is not only perforning certain aspects that are difficult for most, but this all get's MUCH tougher when the language is not a person's native language.

What I'm saying, is that I don't think I'd be helping you by telling you phrasing, and following a songs rhythmic composition is something that needs work, when the difficulty is something MUCH different.. Since we've never spoken to one-another on the phone, I don't want to assume you have an easy time with all phrasing aspects of a language that might not be your primary language. I know many people from Asian locations that have a tough time with phrasing when trying to construct English sentences...So before I assume that what might benefit you is working on an aspect of a song's rhythmic structure (such as tempo and phrasing). Most of us that were brought up with Western music no matter HOW good our ear might be for our own native style of music, would in fact have what appears to be difficulty with aspects of music composition if we were trying to listen to, interpret, and apply an exotic scale different cultures use as well as trying to put together other difficult aspects of a song most have doing this in their native language...

This is what I understand.

Most Westerners grow up with the major scale 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 which becomes a foundation of OUR music theory in western styles. Now those of us familiar with contemporary pop style learn the pentatonic minor scale 1-b3-4-5-b7 and blues
1-b3-4-b5-bb6-b7 scale... b=flat

Flamenco guitarists, or people used to hearing more spanish styles of music however (even though similar culturally) must master the Harmonic minor scale
1-2-b3-4-5-b6-7...  A Jazz musician must be familiar with several modes... and grounded in the Melodic minor scale 1-2-b3-4-5-6-7.

Yet when it comes to certain eastern scales... We can't easily understand them..
There are numerous Chinese modes for instance....
Here are two

1-2-3-5-6
1-2-#3-5-7

and in different locations of the world, there are modes, rhythmic structures that are VERY tough for certain other people in different cultures to grasp too !

I can't play Reggae.. I enjoy listening to it, yet there's a type of hesitation and rythmic structure that is tough for many american people to grasp...and really nail it's dynamic..

There are Javanese, Persian, Mongolian, Japanese, Ethiopian, and Algerian scales too.. as well as Kumoi, Iwato, Hirajoshi, Oriental 1-b2-3-4-b5-6-b7 scales etc...

If the problem is one of cultural differences in language, I don't want to perceive what is happening as a problem with "Rhythm"... The problem would be a difficulty EVERYONE has...People in different cultures are conditioned to understand different aspects of composition. This means not only applying it, yet our ability to even at times hear it.

Just wanted to mention this... and not take it forgranted.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I have not yet think of what song to record for this one. It will be a one take and dry (no eq and effect on the vox). I never keep my own recording in my PC. I do record but more to see where I go wrong in my singing. This is the way I practised.

I only start singing about 6 years ago. I was a bit tone deaf and still is. I had little senses of rhythm, and tempo. I don't play any musical instrument and cant dance. So you see the handy cap I am in.

I do  have a few Rod Stewarts' track in my PC and I think I will do it; but for now Its Bed time . Goodnite

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Goodnite BadSinger,  I want to ask Shotgun CC about certain aspects that might set up (for lack of a better term) problems that might not be Rhythmic constructs of a song itself when a person from an Eastern location first attempts Western music styles.. She's a speech pathologist, and would know about aspects of this... I don't..

But remember how about a year ago we were discussing how it seems that Philipino people really are able to grasp certain aspects of western diction, that other asian locations can't grasp easily at all ?   You aren't at all tone deaf, NOR is your tempo worse than ANYONE who was holding back insecure, or having other difficulties that ARE NOT problems translating and applying tempo. I didn't find your tempo further off than MANY western speaking people trying to keep up with certain backing tracks... It's not easy... MANY great musicians have degree's of tempo difficulty too. There might be a VERY different consideration here. When you sing in your most familiar language, do you have the same problem ?   I feel it would be very wrong of me to not take this into consideration.. There are certain aspects of the English language that are VERY tough for many other cultures to even hear let alone try to apply within the limits of  duple or triple meter. You can hear it, yet it might be VERY hard to phrase it for you..

It get's this intricate.... If you were yelling lyrics to an AC/DC song, a different area of the brain works than if you are trying to accurately annunciate very slow ballad lyrics...

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

The song is up at SS Steven. Anyone can have a try on it I love input from anybody, CC esp. And to make the job earier here is the lyric


"Don't Get Around Much Anymore"

Missed the Saturday dance
Heard they crowded the floor
Couldn't bear it without you
Don't get around much anymore

Thought I'd visit the club
Got as far as the door
They'd have asked me about you
Don't get around much anymore

Darling, I guess my mind's more at ease
But nevertheless, why stir up old memories

Been invited on dates
I might have gone but what for
It's awfully different without you
Don't get around much anymore

My darling, I guess my mind's more at ease
But nevertheless, why stir up old memories

Been invited on dates
I might have gone but what for
It's awfully different without you
Don't get around much anymore
Awfully different without you
Don't get around much anymore

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

English is not my primary language; but I think mostly in English. Speak mostly in English. I speak 3 other languages just as well as I speak English.

When I started singing it was mostly in English . Then I started singing in Malay. I have less problem when singing in Malay; phrasing is less of a problem but I have an accent even in Malay. This is  done more on purpose and for style. I sing less in my on language (which is not Malay). When karaokeing I sing 50-50 English- Malay.

I cannot sing a song if I have not practised singing it. I may have listen to the song a 100 times but I still need to practised singing it. Practised means listening to the original and then trying it out with just the karaoke backing (with the lyrics of course). If the song is already known to me (as in some oldies) the it may take 3 to 5 evening to get to a point where I am comfortable. If the song is new but of a genre that i am familiar then it will take about a week. If it is a new genre it can take up to 2 years ( on and off of course)

Singing in English with an accent is not a problem with me. I just let it be. That is one aspect of my singing that I do not really bother. I see it as adding character to the song

I hope the back ground will help you and CCindy critique the song.

wow my longest post

.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

This is interesting.  I will get to it as soon as I have some time to focus solely on your song Badsinger.  I want to take the time to listen a few times, and present my feelings/thoughts to you. Maybe not today but ASAP...I promise I won't forget.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Jian, I have not forgotten to listen and comment; true I've been in here (KS) blathering and having fun while running around multitasking in other threads. Yet that's just me being my usual foolish self. When it comes to music, and ESPECIALLY critiquing another person I take it seriously, and want to make certain I give it the uninterrupted time and concentration it takes to both listen a few times at least, formulate thoughts as well as presentation..It's something I need to have a segment of time to do...Nothing I'll do while running all over doing other things as I play in other threads acting like my usual foolish self. Sometimes I must even listen to the original song again... When you see me playing here it requires little thought (as should be obvious) the mindless play in here where I'm sarcastic isn't something analytical such as a critique.  I'm not slacking, and I WILL get to it ASAP, however I want to make certain I give it the time it deserves..  Sorry about any delay, I haven't forgotten, and I *AM* interested in doing this...There've been a few Emails where people have asked me to help them out as well, or offer my own feelings....You are first request, so next up...By tomorrow afternoon, have some stuff to get out've the way in the AM... I will present it in the room as you asked, assuming you still want that....The other requests were made in private, and will stay in private.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Am waiting

I like it to open and there is no need to too polite in your write up, just it it all.

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

I want to do the best job of this I can do, someone's work deserves alot of respect if they take effort to submit it.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

[font=Comic Sans MS]When I left this place we were discussing this very topic......I have found since then that the only real opinion that counts is yours.........we who sing sing to improve....and if you work at it you can get better (at least most of us).......the opinions expressed here are of no effect as to whether I sing well or not....that's not to say they can't be helpful and boast your ego a might....but overall in the big scheme of things they really don't mean squat.....just be the best you can be.....[/font]

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[glow=blue]Tequila & A Song
KKid[/glow]

KappY!! I saw that. Haha, NO, you did not get out of line or insult me. I really like Sheryl Crow, and most of the people who hang out in SS have heard me sing a few of her songs. I have never tried "Strong Enough" on SS or at karaoke before, something about the song doesn't seem to sit right with me. Maybe cause I really just don't know it well enough. Wether listening to cd or radio, I tend to flick to the next song if a slow song comes on..... so that would be one of the lesser heard ones by me. But I do know it, just maybe not as well as some of her others.

But, for you, I will sub it, since you asked........ BUT...... it's gonna be one of those "for better or for worse" type of subs, no promises on how I'll do. But, heck, I'm always open for new stuff. And I make my mistakes too (tons of them). You can even tear it up & critique me if ya want. I see how you're doing that for some people here- and it would be really nice and refreshing to hear someone honestly point out my bad notes & such. I can sometimes here them, but sometimes I think they pass me by..... until I listen very carefully to my recording- OR have them pointed out. (Don usually does this for me, and it helps) I think if it's a song I've heard a few times, while singing I tend to rely on "memory" (hearing the singer in my head) rather than actually follow the music so much. And small note changes I didn't pay attention to- my voice goes the other way. Yeah, like THAT made any sense.

ANYhow......... no offense taken......... I'm proud to be even remotely compared to Sheryl Crow, I've been a long time fan of hers. So, I'll go see if my voice has woke up yet, and try to record it.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

You could nail that particular song given your normal voice timbre.  If you got to know that song, and listened to her style on that, you could clone it. Perhaps "All I wanna do" too, but not sure.,You could come awfully close on that one.  I'm not sure how she records her voice on Strong enough either.  As to whether or not she's compressing her voice or not.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Jian,

    First of all, I was quite impressed by your feel for vibrato. Your dynamics fading out the sentence was excellent ..

Dance~~~
Floor~~~~
Anymore~~~

You have a VERY good feel and application for the dynamics of vibrato

Your pitch matching is not enough of an issue to worry about, You ARE able to hear pitch, and apply it.  What I feel throws some of that off (yet only at times) is your difficulty with phrasing here, and the song dynamics..This is an old Duke Ellington standard, it's from the "Swing period" and you'd want that to show, a song like this has alot of interesting dynamics that you'd have to listen closely for, and really feel

You had noticeable difficulty with dynamics on the break

During the following area's you ran into some difficulty. I felt you pushed or attacked the word "Darling", and you had probs with "I guess",  "My Mind"  "But never" and the word "why"..These were too harshly approached, You might've tried approaching these parts more smoothly. Enter these words more softly, rather than attack them...the phrasing was difficult for you in those particular areas. Yet this is a difficult format to sing..

"I might" was too harsh, need to mellow that up...

Basically your dynamics were what seemed to trouble you, not so much your tempo, but your phrasing of specific parts..  At times your dynamics were good, yet often the first syllables of the first word were attacked too strongly, this is a "smooth" type song, in which you must really feel "The groove" of the song, it's not just lyrics sung to music,  this song MUST have proper phrasing, feel, and dynamics...

I'm wondering how this would've sounded had you "layed back" a little more, sung it softer. SNAPPING YOUR FINGERS along with singing a song such as this..will help you to feel the tempo, it's a "Swing" genre song..Yet as I said, your tempo wasn't bad at all, it was phrasing here, and dynamics that caused you trouble..This is a difficult song Jian.. What's more important than just singing a song like this, IS FEELING IT  you really DO have a general feel for what they are doing here, but often times you attacked those first words MUCH too harshly, so find a way to lay back on words such as "missed" and "Heard" and subtly ease into these words instead of "attacking" them, It sounded as if you'd sometimes be too close to your microphone especially during the first words of sentences, or you'd hit a syllable too harshly, yet you always did resolve the sentence at the end and faded the sentence very well with that nice vibrato of yours...

There's something we used to call "The groove" of a song like this... Sing this softer, snap your fingers, and think swing type arrangment, big band era,  Lay back more as you sing... This song MUST be felt, THAT'S more important than anything else, yet to feel it, you must know the dynamics and get the intricate aspects of how it's phrased.

Nice job,  Excellent vibrato,  good pitch matching, no actual tempo probs, but phrasing problems, and dynamics problems....

Sounded good !  Try to get this smoother, and hear the phrasing of the actual original (not Rod Stewart Version) yet one of the standard versions, Ellington perhaps, or one of the other covers of this back in the older days..I don't think you listening to Rod Stewart doing this song, is the best way for you to hear how it's meant to be sung dynamic-wise. You want to hear what Ellington had in mind for it,  that would be easier for your understanding of actual dynamics of this genre.
Try it again softer, more layed back...paying close attention to the parts I mentioned''  Listen to those parts,  see if you can hear what I'm suggesting.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I see you're reading this currently Jian,  If you have any questions please feel free to PM me, or if you want to discuss anything we can meet in the chatroom here..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Hi Steven,

First  of all a BIG THANK YOU. for that write up. I was hoping to read an even worst feed back.

I did the song in one take, and sing it the way I normally sing any Rod Stewart songs. (No that's not a true, the first take was a mic check and the wave form was clipping). When singing it I pay a lot of attention on tempo and pitch and was not too familiar with the song dynamic.

I have listen to the older version of the song but never really pay much attention to the actual singing, The reason being I can never sing the original style. I don't have the FRANKs' voice. I know what you mean when you say "you attacked those first words MUCH too harshly,". I will pay more att. to that part of my weakness in singing this type of songs.

Your are right about my singing with the mic a bit too close to my mouth. See I use those 'pencil mic' to sing when recording this song; a real cheapo that come with the headphone, you know the kind the stick to the side of the face.

Vibrato comes naturally to me and I have no problem to have it at the end of the line. I have problem perhaps in having too much, and need to control it. but I still have to give a consciouses effort to add vibrato at middle of the line.

But like I say before this genre is new to me and that's the reason I need your input to the song. Thanks

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I can neither confirm nor deny ever having or knowing anything about nothing.... mrscott

Well, I dunno about "nail" it or "clone" it. Heck, I couldn't even Karaoke it today. (I tried..... and I could CROAKY it...... but you don't want to hear that)  LMAO

I really did try. One of the big issues: There's a couple spots- real small- where she hits falsetto real lightly. No can do when my voice is off kelter. It just sounded bad. I waited a while, sewed some curtains while having green tea with honey....... now it's afternoon and I STILL can't get it out right. Gonna have to let my throat get better a couple more days or so, let it rest up, then I'll sub it. I'll let ya know when I do.  I'm restraining myself (it's realllyyyy hard) from trying out my new system. That poor little Behringer has been sitting in the corner since yesterday, not even out of the box yet. Cause I know if I hook it up, I'm gonna be singing all night, and I REALLY need to let my voice get over it's current bullfrog state.  :yes:

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥

steven, i'm getting ready to sub the same song that badsinger just did.....i haven't listened to his yet....i'm going to while reading over your critique on it....it is the rod stewart version...., read where you told jian NOT to use his phrasing....hopefully i didn't....i listened to several versions of it but purposely didn't spend a lot of time trying to "get it just right".....just wanted to put it out there and get your thoughts on it before i worked on it toooooooo much......so have a go....and please, if anyone else has any thots or critique please post them here.....

oh, and i knowwwwwww you'll think the verb is probably toooooo much....i just can't help myself.....still hidin'.....

edit:  crap, it'll be a few minutes, guess i didn't save it......   well, at least i don't have time to obsess over it, but i'm still puttin' in the verb.....

Charmin,


She sings this fairly high.  Her starting note is A   :God I feel like:

Yet yep,  she even has a tough time hitting the D above that in the falsetto part
   "But please don't leave",   I don't think she even hit's that at the end second time.


If you were to lower the pitch abit It'd probably slow down the tempo far too much I suppose...



Maybe all I wanna do would be more fun for you  :)   that's more fun I suppose.

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

Jeanne,  Yeah,  you just have to snap your fingers while singing a song like this
It's between the Swing and Bebop periods...

It's from the old ellington jazz genre..  It's abit more tricky a song than many would think...because it's not about "pretty", or "how good the vocals are", it's how well the vocalist untilizes his/her voice in a more jazzy context..Phrasing is everything in this song...How long you hold onto each word, and how feeling is integrated here... These songs are more about mood....that genre of music was more "bop" oriented..

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Northeast United States runner up for the "Singing Hall of Shame".

I don't think I need to lower the pitch.... I think it's fine where it's at. BUT...... not when my throat isn't up to par. It's just that little falsetto note that was bugging me..... When my voice is like this, I can do a more upbeat, faster song MUCH easier than one like this. Tell ya what, tomorrow- after I get up and have my tea/honey/warm water & loosen my voice up a bit, I'll go ahead & record it.  (you just HAD to make it sound like it was something I COULDN'T do...... which makes me all the more determined to try it, hahaha)  Guess I'll just have to run through it a few times first.  On her recording that "Lea-e-eave" ending part, as well as a couple of the "my man" parts- are so low & whispery that you can barely hear WHAT note she hits. Maybe that's why, you're probably hearing something I'm not. They could have lowered the volume of the vocals right there for a reason. Funny that with all the technology, they would not have just "fixed it" for her though.

Anyhow, time for me to start thinking about dinner for the bunch. See ya all tomorrow.

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♥ Laugh your heart out, dance in the rain. Cherish the memories, ignore the pain. Love and learn, forget and forgive. Because you only have one life to live. ♥